ZINC FINGER THEORY DISCUSSION for PFS - 2 cases

[wuf]

So. Why every internet sites claim to try to maitain an alkaline blood to get rid from illness?
If you say we already have it alkaline, we should be in a good position. Why in this forum it s told we are alkaline and it is not good?

 

[Steve]

Well I've been doing it every day for a week nearly and I feel like I am improving.

I'm thinking of eating some liver and having a hydrolysed whey isolate protein shake (all the amino acids fast absorbed) next time before I go.

That way I get the copper from the liver and bs and other vitamins from the liver, the aminos from the protein shake and the electrolytes from the sea.

How does that sound @gbolduev ?

 

[mattyb]

So. Why every internet sites claim to try to maitain an alkaline blood to get rid from illness?
If you say we already have it alkaline, we should be in a good position. Why in this forum it s told we are alkaline and it is not good?

The blood is naturally slightly alkaline at a pH 7.4, which is a normal pH. Alkalosis is when arterial blood pH is above 7.45.

 

[mattyb]

What is the biggest signs of chloride depletion?

Low or excessively high urinary chloride. Low blood chloride.

Symptoms-wise, it's similar to dehydration, similar to how a person might feel when recovering from a very bad stomach flu where they were vomitting/sweating constantly. The body can get stuck in that state if it's not corrected properly in some people.

I would imagine the "brain fog" and "muscle weakness" that some people with PFS get is largely due to this.

 

[mattyb]

Has anyone here tried NH4Cl instead of HCl?

 

[wuf]

The blood is naturally slightly alkaline at a pH 7.4, which is a normal pH. Alkalosis is when arterial blood pH is above 7.45.

Thank you, I got it.
So, all the sites around internet, which tell to keep an alkaline diet + drink water lemon + drink bicarbonate sodium etc...to alkaline the body is not good for us because we are already in alkalosis?
This is what I need to know.

 

[mattyb]

Thank you, I got it.
So, all the sites around internet, which tell to keep an alkaline diet + drink water lemon + drink bicarbonate sodium etc...to alkaline the body is not good for us because we are already in alkalosis?
This is what I need to know.

Yes, that is right. Don't do stuff to alkalize.

A lot of that alkaline diet stuff on the internet is bullshit anyway, it doesn't even work.

 

[Canari]

Has anyone here tried NH4Cl instead of HCl?

What is the common name of NH4Cl?

My hair test also says I am in tissue alkalosis, then it would mean that Buteyko breathing is good? Because it increases CO2.
But then how can I have alkalinity and make too much lactic acid?

 

[mattyb]

Mattyb can you talk about dosages used?


@tanedout @bruschi11 How much betaine are you using per meal? I have tried 650mg to 5000mg and seem to get good results, but will test with extra K, and will try some cycles like mattyb rec'd

In medical settings HCl is typically IV'd until blood chloride levels are raised. Oral dosages would vary, I'm not sure how. I don't know how oral absorption of HCl works vs. IV administration.

In chloride-resistant alkalosis urinary chloride losses can be pretty large, well over 1500mg/day, upwards to 2500mg/day - and that's not accounting for sweat losses or anything like that either. So this translates to about 1800-3000mg per day of HCl on top of a regular diet given no exercise or sweat loss.

Just make sure that whatever you do administration of electrolytes and water is slow and steady. Don't take large doses of anything all at once, instead dilute it in water and sip on it throughout the day slowly.

 

[bruschi11]

@Orion I use about 600-1000mg 3 times a day.

@mattyb great info, now I won't be afraid to raise it. I'm exercising a lot, sweating in sauna too, doing coffee enemas EOD. So I'm sure I can use more than less.

 

[Admiral]

HCl needs to be taken with potassium. That's how you rehydrate after chloride depletion, which I suspect most people with PFS will have secondary to mineralocorticoid disregulation.

HCl + potassium, then after a few days of this add in sodium + magnesium and lots of water. But in PFS you will probably have to keep this supplementation going fairly consistently until the root cause is treated, because this is patchwork. PFS people could maybe cycle this 5-6 days a week (2-3 days just HCl + K, then 2-3 days of everything) until they find something that actually treats them. That will probably help stabilize blood electrolytes. Reduce dietary nitrate intake as well, because although eNOS is likely downregulated in PFS, the nitrates will cause chloride depletion and make everything worse. So look out for veggies high in nitrate, and especially avoid processed meats.

I've treated my own chloride depletion twice now (the second time was after food poisoning and lots of vomiting/sweating) following something similar to this, except I did it with food/juices. The difference with me is that it sticks because I'm not PFS and I had volume contraction, not volume expansion. So just keep in mind that chloride repletion is probably just a patch in PFS, but a good chloride repletion strategy should at least alleviate some symptoms. And you can't get the chloride from NaCl, it needs to come from HCl, or foods with a high ratio of chloride to sodium (e.g. celery, cucumber, rye bread) coupled with high potassium foods.

Maybe you could throw in something like lysine HCl on days 6/7 of this protocol as well. Could help, not sure yet on that though.

Well, I am quitting HCL as I slept from 22:00 til 00:00. I laid awake the rest of the night.

I can’t do this anymore. Everything I take seems to make me worse.

I might try HCL with potassium, but I am afraid of insomnia as it is really hampering my work and social life.

 

[mattyb]

I think someone needs to try out NH4Cl instead of using HCl. I think it's more appropriate in PFS if what gbold says is true about PFS being volume expansion alkalosis akin to hyperaldosteronism. In hyperaldosteronism you have chloride depletion, but hydrogen is excreted excessively in urine, as well as shifting H+ into the intracellular compartments in exchange for sodium. NH4Cl works a bit differently than HCl, in that it doesn't lower intracellular bicarb concentrations, only extracellular bicarb. If PFS is somewhat like hyperaldosteronism that would mean NH4Cl (ammonium chloride) might be a better option to combat alkalosis.

 

[JDreamer]

Wow @JDreamer those are almost exactly the same results as me. Low T, High Folate, High bilirubin, High calcium, high cortisol. I haven't got DHT, T3 and TSH tested. How was your lymphocyte count, albumin and your hba1c?

Unfortunately I don't know them off-hand. I'll take a look when I get home later.

What symptoms are you experiencing?

 

[JDreamer]

I agree , most people have high copper in their livers. that is why I rec zinc manganese for hairloss.

I started it last week. We'll see how it goes. Right off the bat I've noticed my hair is a bit dryer than normal.

Just want to get back to a point in my life where sleep is refreshing, head hair is growing, and I'm waking up with erections. It's been so long.

 

[Orion]

I think someone needs to try out NH4Cl instead of using HCl. I think it's more appropriate in PFS if what gbold says is true about PFS being volume expansion alkalosis akin to hyperaldosteronism. In hyperaldosteronism you have chloride depletion, but hydrogen is excreted excessively in urine, as well as shifting H+ into the intracellular compartments in exchange for sodium. NH4Cl works a bit differently than HCl, in that it doesn't lower intracellular bicarb concentrations, only extracellular bicarb. If PFS is somewhat like hyperaldosteronism that would mean NH4Cl (ammonium chloride) might be a better option to combat alkalosis.

Is ammonium chloride something common or easy to purchase, see it on amazon to add to animal feed, etc... probably not in health food stores.

 

[mattyb]

Is ammonium chloride something common or easy to purchase, see it on amazon to add to animal feed, etc... probably not in health food stores.

You can find health products on amazon for it.

https://www.amazon.com/Ammonium-Chloride-Buffered-Supplements-SENSEable/dp/B014QA7SFY

I think someone with PFS needs to be the guinea pig for this.

 

[buffkin14]

I started it last week. We'll see how it goes. Right off the bat I've noticed my hair is a bit dryer than normal.

Just want to get back to a point in my life where sleep is refreshing, head hair is growing, and I'm waking up with erections. It's been so long.

have you tried glycine? I have started sleeping much better since I took glycine

 

[Shanks]

You can find health products on amazon for it.

https://www.amazon.com/Ammonium-Chloride-Buffered-Supplements-SENSEable/dp/B014QA7SFY

I think someone with PFS needs to be the guinea pig for this.

Only PFS guys or PSSD also?

 

[mattyb]

Only PFS guys or PSSD also?

PSSD also. Just as long as it's taken along with all the electrolytes. Alone it won't do anyone any good.

 

[Canari]

https://www.amazon.com/Ammonium-Chloride-Buffered-Supplements-SENSEable/dp/B014QA7SFY

It is not like betaine hcl aimed at making more stomach acid? (they say it is buffered with potassium phosphate.)

Dietary supplement. Used to help maintain proper pH levels. Supports the bodily mechanisms involved in the retention of nitrogen and the regulation of creatinine, blood urea nitrogen, and uric acid.

Nice comments....
- They provide a method for choosing the dose based on how the product smells to the user and that method works great. We have a relative with metabolic alkalosis that is benefiting from using this.

- Out of nowhere I contracted a bronchial problem and was at my wits end to get some relief. I was searching on line for expectorants and out popped ammonium chloride. My granddad gave this to me many years ago and I had forgotten about it. I ordered this and it worked for me.