Mini-Me's Log

[Minime]

Hi everyone. I've been following the gbold threads for a while now. I used Accutane and Propecia several years ago. Received my RU today. Although I ordered 6 Mifepristone, I unfortunately received 2 Mifepristone and 8 Misoprostol. WTF?
I still have to go through the process of getting blood work and a hair analysis.
While I will not start any protocol until after getting my blood/hair results, I'm really hoping this Mifepristone is the cure as I am going down a slippery slope over the past couple months. I believe it is similar to what black fox (correct name?) went through.
My back and joints suddenly started deteriorating a couple months ago. This is after considerable muscle wasting so I believe it is related. Sitting has become barely tolerable as my lumbar spine cannot properly support me without going into spasm or the vertebrae shifting on me, pinching nerves and rendering me to the couch for days at a time. I can drive to/from work but I stand and work all day and only sit for maybe a minute or two a few times a day. I have been in physical therapy for 8 weeks and my condition has not improved. They asked me to get an MRI so I had that done this morning.
My vertebrae feel loose, unsupported and very unstable. Beginning a few days ago, I am now constantly twisting my torso to "adjust" or crack all of my vertebrae as I can feel them move out of place constantly. Unfortunately, this condition is gradually progressing up my spine. My hips, knees and elbows have also become extremely weak and unstable. I can walk fine so I'm not debilitated at this point...but obviously I am concerned that I am progressing towards debilitation.
I honestly cannot recall black fox' story completely and I'm not going back to review it tonight due to issues with my eyes (Accutane sufferers often suffer from very dry eyes, making reading an unpleasant experience and thus I have to limit the amount of time I can spend on the computer).
Sorry this is so long. If you have any suggestions on my condition please let me know. Otherwise I will move forward with the blood/hair analysis and post the results when I get them.
Oh, the only meds/supplements I am on at this point is NatureThroid (I have Hoshimoto's Hypothyroidism) and selenium.

 

[wuf]

Hi,
blackfox used anti estrogens to get this very severe condition.
Did you use any anti estrogens?
As Gbold suggested, never use anti estrogens..
How long are you off from accutane and propecia?
Did you ever use any other drug after that?
My 2 cents suggestion is to start to eat every very helty foods and keep a lot of sleep if you can sleep and I would avoid excercises for the moment since you are in this condition...You need to preserve energy and you do not want to harm yourself even more, so I would rest if I was in your position.
I would also take blood and hair test for sure before to try any protocol.

 

[Minime]

Thanks for your response wuf.
I have not taken any anti estrogens so maybe I'm not going down the same path as blackfox (geez I hope not). I'm certainly not debilitated like he was but my condition is certainly worsening for some reason (concerning my spine and joints). Prior to a few months ago, I did not have any of these bone related problems. Maybe this is just a result of significant muscle wasting and my muscles have finally reached a point where they are simply too weak to hold my bones in place. I don't feel there is any androgenic response in my body anymore. I doubt this is truly the case, but I really do feel extremely weak and that seems to be worsening. My muscles just don't seem to respond to exercise.
I took Accutane 27 years ago (for 12 months). I've been off Propecia for about 6 years now, after taking it off and on for two decades before crashing. No other drugs other than one dose of an SSRI (can't recall when).
I don't get any exercise other than what I was getting through PT. The therapists seemed surprised at how weak I was when they first tested my strength. After 8 weeks of PT I was not seeing the strength gains they were expecting. As mentioned, I have gone through significant muscle wasting like many others with PFS.
I was eating healthy for about 12 months but then fell off the wagon a couple months ago when I was laid up on the couch with my back problem. I am now starting to eat healthy again.
I will take your advice...will eat healthy and rest my body, and will try to get sleep (like others with PFS, insomnia can be an issue for me at times...though not consistently). I get 4-5 hours of sleep per night but I've been trying to increase that to 6. Back spasms awaken me often so it is a challenge.
I am working on blood/hair analysis and will post results when I get them. As suggested, I will not start any protocol until after I get those results and can get guidance from those on this board.
Thanks for your input!

 

[wuf]

What is your age?
I mean you quitted accutane 27 years ago...
You could maybe try to use some herbs as CdNuts suggests, that maybe could give you a boost in energy and muscle response.
I remember I was also devastated in muscles and joints years ago...
I remember I went to have a x Ray for my back and they asked me if I ever had crash car or some injury and the doctors were astonished...I know what you are talking about, that really sucks.
It is hard but try to get the fullest and biggest sleep you can, that's the easiest way for the body to restore damages.. you should try to have 9-10 hours per night if possible, your body will thank you.
Test your blood and hair and test also for progesterone since it seems to be the main indicator by gbolduev theories..
Try also to google about adrenals burnout and diet, take advices to restore adrenals it's very simple PFS suffers have this.
These are just advises and could make feel you better since you try to help yyour body to preserve energy and use it to heal himself... for the cure we are searching something new with RU etc..

 

[Minime]

Thanks for the reply wuf.
I'm in my mid-40's.
I'll look into the herbs etc. I was thinking andro and pine pollen at one point (and a couple herbs from cdnuts protocol but can't recall what they were) but then decided to hold off when I encountered these gbold threads.
That is interesting about your back. It sounds like you have rebounded over the years. Do you contribute that to the herbs? What helped you the most for muscles and bone?
I agree with your comment about sleep. I really need to focus on that.
I did get adrenals tested about a year ago. I believe the doctor said I had the opposite of adrenal fatigue...which seemed odd to me since I had zero energy. I will research this further.
I will certainly get progesterone tested...along with the other things gbold suggested.
Thanks!

 

[wuf]

At that time I was in hell man, no way..bones and muscles destroyed and I was going crazy..only time fixed it for me and I live in Italy so we always have super health foods and Mediterranean foods so I guess it helped.
Yes the sleep is something people do not focus on, but that is a medicine itself,people focus on taking drugs, but sleep is the drug your body has to heal the best, so use it..9 10h of sleep every night and for sure you will feel way better.
Gogle cdnuts protocol should be male optimization.org and find the herbs.
Also prepare bone broth and drink it every morning before breakfast. That has collagen and minerals that will help you a lot..but you need to be constant to see results.
Don't eat sweets sugar and coffee, and try to avoid gluten.
This is what I am doing and what is helping me.
Hard to do it constantly at the beginning but later it becomes normal.

 

[Shadow]

At that time I was in hell man, no way..bones and muscles destroyed and I was going crazy..only time fixed it for me and I live in Italy so we always have super health foods and Mediterranean foods so I guess it helped.
Yes the sleep is something people do not focus on, but that is a medicine itself,people focus on taking drugs, but sleep is the drug your body has to heal the best, so use it..9 10h of sleep every night and for sure you will feel way better.
Gogle cdnuts protocol should be male optimization.org and find the herbs.
Also prepare bone broth and drink it every morning before breakfast. That has collagen and minerals that will help you a lot..but you need to be constant to see results.
Don't eat sweets sugar and coffee, and try to avoid gluten.
This is what I am doing and what is helping me.
Hard to do it constantly at the beginning but later it becomes normal.

Im confused, what appeared in the x-ray? Physical damage?

 

[wuf]

No no. I remember I was so devastating that I asked an ray x but I had nothing. Everything came out perfect but I was having bone and muscles devasting

 

[Minime]

I'm expecting the same thing with my MRI results. Even though I am in considerable discomfort and unable to sit for very long, the MRI results will probably show everything is "fine". Sad. I will post results as soon as I get them.

 

[wuf]

For sure it will show everything is fine as was in my case.
Get herbs and other suggests I told you if you want to try.

 

[Aleksandr]

I'm expecting the same thing with my MRI results. Even though I am in considerable discomfort and unable to sit for very long, the MRI results will probably show everything is "fine". Sad. I will post results as soon as I get them.

Hi Minime,

I wonder if we have the same problem? Do you have libido issues as well?

My problems include sore joints and dry eyes (i took 3 rounds of accutane 9 years ago) and my eyes have been dry ever since the 3rd round. I do not have libido issues thugh. Other accutane users on here who have libido issues seem to have high cortisol/potassium (and they do not seem to have the dry eyes problem). I have done a hair test and it showed low potassium (and high venous co2).

From these symptoms (if you don't have libido issues) it looks like you could be a case 2.
http://www.hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5

Gbold recommends:
Case #2 – antagonized receptors
1) Copper 10mg ED; after 3 weeks add in zinc + NAD + magnesium + manganese + B6
2) High-dose manganese + co-factors
3) Estradiol + DHT
4) Andro + relora + licorice root
5) Pine pollen + relora + licorice root
6) Pine pollen + relora + nettle


Before trying anything I would recommend you wait till your results come back. Hopefully they will be here soon. I hope the forum can help you!!

 

[Minime]

Hi m_arch.
Yes, I have dry eyes from Accutane...been suffering from that for years. Had to switch from contacts to glasses and I simply cannot read for very long at a time cuz I need to give my eyes a break quite often. Propecia gave me significant libido issues and significant shrinkage. I am virtually dead down there unfortunately. And now I am having considerable issues with joints and my lumbar area which actually has me quite worried. Got my MRI results back today...will be getting blood work and hair analysis soon I hope.

I am so thankful to TubZy for setting up this site. I feel like this is the best hope I've had in years...even though I am at a pretty low point. And everyone on this site is helpful and supportive. Can't wait to overcome this hell...I know we can do it!

 

[Minime]

Oh, my MRI results...
Arthritis.
Pretty sure that's what doctors say when they don't find anything or they simply don't know what the heck is wrong.
Moving forward with physical therapy and of course the blood work and hair analysis (though I am trying to find a doctor who will do all this testing through insurance cuz I don't want to shell out $750).
Also I reached out to the site where I purchased the Mifepristone and they said they would ship the 4 pills that I didn't receive with my initial shipment.

 

[IHateFin]

hey man glad you got your stuff. i think i spoke to you on ray peat forum about this. what cycle n dose are you considering?

 

[Minime]

I'm still in the process of getting my labs done. May take a bit as I try to get my doc to cover the blood work via insurance. He is not a believer in "unnecessary" labs though and thus I'm not expecting him to agree to this. But gotta give it a shot cuz it will cost a lot of money out of pocket if I don't go through him/insurance.
I'm going to see how some of the current protocols go and make a decision then (and of course I will be looking for advice from everyone on this board once I am able to post my labs). My initial thought is to try very low dose RU for short cycles...probably 3 days, then one month off, then three days again etc. [mention]IHateFin[/mention] I thought you had posted an article on the ray peat forum that stated the anti progesterone impact of RU was very effective at just 4mg. Of course I can't find that link now and nobody has suggested a dosage that low so I am assuming I read it incorrectly at the time.

 

[IHateFin]

I'm still in the process of getting my labs done. May take a bit as I try to get my doc to cover the blood work via insurance. He is not a believer in "unnecessary" labs though and thus I'm not expecting him to agree to this. But gotta give it a shot cuz it will cost a lot of money out of pocket if I don't go through him/insurance.
I'm going to see how some of the current protocols go and make a decision then (and of course I will be looking for advice from everyone on this board once I am able to post my labs). My initial thought is to try very low dose RU for short cycles...probably 3 days, then one month off, then three days again etc. @IHateFin I thought you had posted an article on the ray peat forum that stated the anti progesterone impact of RU was very effective at just 4mg. Of course I can't find that link now and nobody has suggested a dosage that low so I am assuming I read it incorrectly at the time.

Yeah I definitely was the one who linked it haha I tried to look for it cuz I usually keep the articles I post open on other tabs in my phone browser, but I vividly remember that 10mg was enough to STRONGLY antagonize progesterone according to the article. 5 to 10mg would work!

I think you should give these low doses a shot for 3 days.

 

[IHateFin]

In 2018 when I try ru again for 3 days I will be doing doses this low 5-10mg

 

[Minime]

[mention]mattyb[/mention]
[mention]IHateFin[/mention]
[mention]wuf[/mention]
@[mention]gbolduev[/mention]

Well, finally got my doctor to agree to take certain labs. Below are the results. Would really appreciate opinions/thoughts from anyone.

Estrogen, Total, Serum : 220.3 pg/mL [60-190].
Estradiol: 33 pg/mL [< or = 39].
Androstenedione: 72 ng/dL [40-190].
Progesterone: 0.1 ng/dL [< or = 0.2].
DHT: 39 ng/dL [16-79].
FSH: 3.9 miU/mL [1.6-8.0].
LH: 3.3 miU/mL [1.5-9.3].
Prolactin: 4.5 ng/dL [2.0-18.0].
Ceruloplasmin: 23 mg/dL [18-36].
C-Reactive Protein: 0.3 mg/L [<8.0].
SED Rate: 2 mm/h [< or = 15].
HLA-B27 Antigen: Negative.
ANA Screen, IF A, w/refl Titer and Pattern: Positive.
SBX Antinuclear Antibodies Titer and Pattern: Homogeneous [Abnormal if homogeneous]

For the life of me I cannot figure out why he did not include Testosterone in this lab.

Waiting on hair analysis results.

Please let me know if there is anything from these labs that may be driving my symptoms. Primary symptoms: spine and joint pain, zero libido (almost completely lifeless and always cold down there), significant shrinkage and curvature, significant anxiety.

 

[IHateFin]

@mattyb
@IHateFin
@wuf
@@gbolduev

Well, finally got my doctor to agree to take certain labs. Below are the results. Would really appreciate opinions/thoughts from anyone.

Estrogen, Total, Serum : 220.3 pg/mL [60-190].
Estradiol: 33 pg/mL [< or = 39].
Androstenedione: 72 ng/dL [40-190].
Progesterone: 0.1 ng/dL [< or = 0.2].
DHT: 39 ng/dL [16-79].
FSH: 3.9 miU/mL [1.6-8.0].
LH: 3.3 miU/mL [1.5-9.3].
Prolactin: 4.5 ng/dL [2.0-18.0].
Ceruloplasmin: 23 mg/dL [18-36].
C-Reactive Protein: 0.3 mg/L [<8.0].
SED Rate: 2 mm/h [< or = 15].
HLA-B27 Antigen: Negative.
ANA Screen, IF A, w/refl Titer and Pattern: Positive.
SBX Antinuclear Antibodies Titer and Pattern: Homogeneous [Abnormal if homogeneous]

For the life of me I cannot figure out why he did not include Testosterone in this lab.

Waiting on hair analysis results.

Please let me know if there is anything from these labs that may be driving my symptoms. Primary symptoms: spine and joint pain, zero libido (almost completely lifeless and always cold down there), significant shrinkage and curvature, significant anxiety.

nothing on here is jumping out at me, but your progesterone is upper range it seems. I was given a different range when I was tested. my range was < .15ng, but ranges hardly matter from person to person. you may still have some mineral balancing issues if cortisol is an issue too like Gbold has mentioned. prolactin is nice n low so maybe something that helps with alkalosis or potassium and tanking progesterone would be very beneficial.

 

[Minime]

@mattyb
@IHateFin
@wuf
@@gbolduev

Well, finally got my doctor to agree to take certain labs. Below are the results. Would really appreciate opinions/thoughts from anyone.

Estrogen, Total, Serum : 220.3 pg/mL [60-190].
Estradiol: 33 pg/mL [< or = 39].
Androstenedione: 72 ng/dL [40-190].
Progesterone: 0.1 ng/dL [< or = 0.2].
DHT: 39 ng/dL [16-79].
FSH: 3.9 miU/mL [1.6-8.0].
LH: 3.3 miU/mL [1.5-9.3].
Prolactin: 4.5 ng/dL [2.0-18.0].
Ceruloplasmin: 23 mg/dL [18-36].
C-Reactive Protein: 0.3 mg/L [<8.0].
SED Rate: 2 mm/h [< or = 15].
HLA-B27 Antigen: Negative.
ANA Screen, IF A, w/refl Titer and Pattern: Positive.
SBX Antinuclear Antibodies Titer and Pattern: Homogeneous [Abnormal if homogeneous]

For the life of me I cannot figure out why he did not include Testosterone in this lab.

Waiting on hair analysis results.

Please let me know if there is anything from these labs that may be driving my symptoms. Primary symptoms: spine and joint pain, zero libido (almost completely lifeless and always cold down there), significant shrinkage and curvature, significant anxiety.

nothing on here is jumping out at me, but your progesterone is upper range it seems. I was given a different range when I was tested. my range was < .15ng, but ranges hardly matter from person to person. you may still have some mineral balancing issues if cortisol is an issue too like Gbold has mentioned. prolactin is nice n low so maybe something that helps with alkalosis or potassium and tanking progesterone would be very beneficial.

@IHateFin
Am I a good candidate to trial RU or is there not enough information here? Also, my estrogen appears quite high. Is that a concern and can that be driving any of my symptoms?