Tanedout PA Log

[Orion]

This is a weird one..

I decided to try the herbal anti-progesterones route, and over the weekend drank a load of herbal 'fennel' tea to see if I would get any sort of rebound during the week (have done nothing else different, usual healthy diet and sups like cod liver oil etc)

However since Wednesday evening I've been getting pretty constant heart palpitations. They've continued through today, and tend to come and go for a few hours, and I've tried a few things, but they seem to helped by supplementing with zinc (using effervescent zinc tablets with vit C). Tried zinc as I've read heart palpitations can be the result of zinc deficiency. I tried magnesium first but didn't feel that did much.

I didn't even think about this possibly being related to the herbal anti-prog, but I'm wondering if it might be now, seem plausible?! Possible link to zinc being tanked?

Could of course just be a completely unrelated coincidence but thought I'd mention it anyway!

Low potassium is linked to heart palpitations. Could tanking potassium with anti-prog herbs could drive K down.

 

[tanedout]

This is a weird one..

I decided to try the herbal anti-progesterones route, and over the weekend drank a load of herbal 'fennel' tea to see if I would get any sort of rebound during the week (have done nothing else different, usual healthy diet and sups like cod liver oil etc)

However since Wednesday evening I've been getting pretty constant heart palpitations. They've continued through today, and tend to come and go for a few hours, and I've tried a few things, but they seem to helped by supplementing with zinc (using effervescent zinc tablets with vit C). Tried zinc as I've read heart palpitations can be the result of zinc deficiency. I tried magnesium first but didn't feel that did much.

I didn't even think about this possibly being related to the herbal anti-prog, but I'm wondering if it might be now, seem plausible?! Possible link to zinc being tanked?

Could of course just be a completely unrelated coincidence but thought I'd mention it anyway!

Low potassium is linked to heart palpitations. Could tanking potassium with anti-prog herbs could drive K down.

Thanks, makes sense, I've been smashing coconut water today which is really high in potassium (along with the zinc capsules), and the palpitations have been gone since this morning. Never had palpitations like that before lasting so long, but my serum potassium does always test low/boarderline low.

 

[mattyb]

I don't know why you guys aren't supping potassium more often while tinkering with all of these potassium modulators.

Seems like a safe way to hedge any negative side effects, while carrying little risk of interfering with the medications/supplements.

 

[tanedout]

I don't know why you guys aren't supping potassium more often while tinkering with all of these potassium modulators.

Seems like a safe way to hedge any negative side effects, while carrying little risk of interfering with the medications/supplements.

Definitely will be from now on, I'm not planning to experience palpitations like that again!

On the other hand it makes me wonder if the anti-prog herbs did actually have an effect? Reading up on RU486 it does say potassium levels should be normalised, and if necessary supplementation should be used when taking it

Hypokalemia, an expected complication based on the resultant rise in aldosterone levels secondary to a lack of negative feedback, as well as hypertension and edema, can be treated with potassium supplementation or spironolactone

http://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/veterinary-science-and-veterinary-medicine/mifepristone

It's interesting to note that this is discussing RU486 for the treatment of Cushing Disease!

 

[tanedout]

Some repeat bloods from last week, and only real change (to bloods on the first page) is phosphate is just about in range now;

- Inorganic phosphate - 0.83 mmol/L [0.8 - 1.5]

Since supplementing with potassium (3 x 99mg) I've had no issues with heart palpitations, but my serum potassium is still at the low end of normal. One thing I do get is pain/pressure in the right side of my chest, and to an extent the bottom of my neck (someone else mentioned this too), but I've found something that definitely alleviates this is exercise - if I go on a 10 minute + walk then it's much reduced/gone, and seems to slowly build if I'm dormant. Have read this could be low c02 in the blood, so I'm going to try and get this tested.

Will also try and get serum histamine checked if possible. I used to always get bad hay fever every summer and would sometimes take anti-histamines for this, but since getting stuck with post-accutane I've never had hay fever again.

 

[Flynn]

Any improvement with libido yet?

 

[tanedout]

Any improvement with libido yet?

No change really, I'm just trying to get to a stable baseline then I want to get some bloods done and look to jump on one of the protocols.

I tend to always get periods with bits of libido and sensitivity coming back, but then it goes and I can never work out what causes the benefits!

Currently supplementing with UDCA which resolves issues with upper right quadrant pain (liver/GB). although liver enzymes always perfectly in range, and potassium as that's always low. For phosphates I'm just getting this through diet - bread and milk etc. Betaine HCI with larger meals.

Checked urine pH recently, came back 6.75. Will do a few more checks, but that's considered normal.

Mario Vittali from PhoenixRising resolved his finasteride sides from taking a number of supplements, but it seems TUDCA (same as UDCA with a taurine molecule attached, similar effects in studies) was key. Some here solved their accutane sides also with TUDCA along with things like MSM (which I see is suggested for Alkalosis on some sites);

 

[Flynn]

No change really, I'm just trying to get to a stable baseline then I want to get some bloods done and look to jump on one of the protocols.

I tend to always get periods with bits of libido and sensitivity coming back, but then it goes and I can never work out what causes the benefits!

Currently supplementing with UDCA which resolves issues with upper right quadrant pain (liver/GB). although liver enzymes always perfectly in range, and potassium as that's always low. For phosphates I'm just getting this through diet - bread and milk etc. Betaine HCI with larger meals.

Checked urine pH recently, came back 6.75. Will do a few more checks, but that's considered normal.

Mario Vittali from PhoenixRising resolved his finasteride sides from taking a number of supplements, but it seems TUDCA (same as UDCA with a taurine molecule attached, similar effects in studies) was key. Some here solved their accutane sides also with TUDCA along with things like MSM (which I see is suggested for Alkalosis on some sites);

#28
Have you ever had blood tests done? If so, did you ever get growth hormone, IGF-1 or IGFBP-3 tested? Have you experimented with exogenous testosterone supplements?

 

[tanedout]

Bloods back and seem to indicate hypothyroidism (but seem to remember Gbol saying this is indicated based on the situation, but not actually the case);

Thyroid

Serum TSH - 0.69 [0.2 - 4.0] - Low-ish
Serum free T4 - 20.8 pmol/L [10.0-20.0] - HIGH

Blood

Potassium - 3.4 [3.5 - 5.3] - LOW
Inorganic Phosphate 0.91 [0.8 - 1.5] low-ish
Sodum 142 [133 - 142]
Calcium 2.39 [2.2 - 2.6]
Eosinophil Count - 0.03 [0.04 - 0.4] - LOW <- Quick google indicates this could be an infection, but I googled with histamine and seems possibly this indicates histamine low? Any idea @gbolduev ? I've not seen this on my bloods before, but will google more later after work!

 

[tanedout]

Just got some bloods back (only confirmed a few over the phone) and first time in ages everything is in-range.

Thyroid

TSH = 0.62 [0.2 - 4.0]
Free T4 = 18.7 [10.0 - 20.0]

Electrolytes

Potassium = 4.7 [3.5 - 5.3]


Still having issues with what I think might be GERD or acid reflux causing chest pains etc. I've found today if I take bicarbonate of soda in some water it seems to alleviate it, but I need to experiment some more with that.

Worth nothing that previously I was supplementing with potassium citrate and that didn't seem to make any difference to my level, but after switching to potassium chloride after the recommendations from Gbol and MattyB in discussions on the electrolytes thread that has clearly made a difference!

 

[tanedout]

Bit of an update - my issues at the moment really seem to be bile related, like bile is just not flowing and this results in a feeling like blood pressure is very high and I feel very tense, but then something that triggers bile flow will allow me to relax and feel more calm. Also after taking something which stimulates bile flow I tend to get less brain fog - specifically sharper vision, like suddenly things appear in HD and I can see minute detail again. Sense of smell also improves.

Most effective thing I've found to trigger bile flow is Tribulus which is very bitter. This seems much more effective that artichoke root extract, dandelion root, chinese or Swedish bitters etc.

The lack of bile seems to have allowed leaky gut to take hold and an overgrowth of bad bacteria/SIBO and I've had some pretty extreme food intolerances to the point where even 'rice flour' in a supplement capsule resulted in issues. Having cut gluten, dairy and sugar these are getting better.

Current stack:

• TUDCA 2 x 200mg (seems to help with bile flow, and I sweat again if I take this, and sweat smells musky - soon as I stop, within days I no longer sweat and armpits are bone dry with no sweaty oder). This also relieves the light pain I get in the liver/GB area
• Quercetin 3 x 350mg throughout day - to reduce gut inflammation, which seems to be getting better - will drop once current supply is out
• Ashwaghanda x 1 - for stress/cortisol reduction and thyroid
• Tulsi x 1 - helps with sleep and reduce stress/cortisol
• MSM x 1 1500mg
• Digestive enzymes with each meal
• Tribulus or artichoke extract or dandelion root with each meal
• Ginger tea and camomile tea for bile flow

One thing I'm considering is maybe 10 days of zero fat diet. I got really ill a couple of years back when I went through a period where eating fat resulted in terrible anxiety, racing heart, feeling awful - so I avoided it for 10 days and then got 2 days of recovery, but these faded as I started eating normally again after that. I'm not sure if it was down to the fat avoidance (all I ate was jacket potato, tomato, sauerkraut [vit k2? and lactobacillus], fat free yoghurt, tomato and courgettes). Might try and give this another go as now my diet is very restricted anyway, it won't be too hard to implement.

 

[Helen]

Bit of an update - my issues at the moment really seem to be bile related, like bile is just not flowing and this results in a feeling like blood pressure is very high and I feel very tense, but then something that triggers bile flow will allow me to relax and feel more calm. Also after taking something which stimulates bile flow I tend to get less brain fog - specifically sharper vision, like suddenly things appear in HD and I can see minute detail again. Sense of smell also improves.

Most effective thing I've found to trigger bile flow is Tribulus which is very bitter. This seems much more effective that artichoke root extract, dandelion root, chinese or Swedish bitters etc.

The lack of bile seems to have allowed leaky gut to take hold and an overgrowth of bad bacteria/SIBO and I've had some pretty extreme food intolerances to the point where even 'rice flour' in a supplement capsule resulted in issues. Having cut gluten, dairy and sugar these are getting better.

Current stack:

• TUDCA 2 x 200mg (seems to help with bile flow, and I sweat again if I take this, and sweat smells musky - soon as I stop, within days I no longer sweat and armpits are bone dry with no sweaty oder)
• Quercetin 3 x 350mg throughout day - to reduce gut inflammation, which seems to be getting better - will drop once current supply is out
• Ashwaghanda x 1 - for stress/cortisol reduction and thyroid
• Tulsi x 1 - helps with sleep and reduce stress/cortisol
• MSM x 1 1500mg
• Digestive enzymes with each meal
• Tribulus or artichoke extract or dandelion root with each meal
• Ginger tea and camomile tea for bile flow

One thing I'm considering is maybe 10 days of zero fat diet. I got really ill a couple of years back when I went through a period where eating fat resulted in terrible anxiety, racing heart, feeling awful - so I avoided it for 10 days and then got 2 days of recovery, but these faded as I started eating normally again after that. I'm not sure if it was down to the fat avoidance (all I ate was jacket potato, tomato, sauerkraut [vit k2? and lactobacillus], fat free yoghurt, tomato and courgettes). Might try and give this another go as now my diet is very restricted anyway, it won't be too hard to implement.

Why are you not going on TEI? why guess?

 

[tanedout]

Why are you not going on TEI? why guess?

I did do a TEI hair analysis, and to be honest it didn't come back that out of whack compared to a lot of the others I've seen. I got the sups and ran these for a bit, but the copper seemed to cause me issues so I held off. But to be honest maybe I should give it another go..

https://hackstasis.com/threads/tanedout-hair-mineral-analysis.210/

 

[Helen]

I did do a TEI hair analysis, and to be honest it didn't come back that out of whack compared to a lot of the others I've seen. I got the sups and ran these for a bit, but the copper seemed to cause me issues so I held off. But to be honest maybe I should give it another go..

https://hackstasis.com/threads/tanedout-hair-mineral-analysis.210/

You call 4 lows - a tunnel of death not that out of whack? LOL

this is the worse imbalance you get can on hairtest

You can try to run the electrolytes protocol since , this imbalance is usually lactic acidosis. SO you need a lot of Bs and all the SODs and amino acids


Or you can go on TEI and stay on it. This will take a while


So I would suggest you try electrolytes protocol for a short while to high dose Bs. etc/

Also look at the ratio of B1 to b2. See which one you do better on and take more of that one. at first

If this does not work, just stick with TEI.

 

[tanedout]

You call 4 lows - a tunnel of death not that out of whack? LOL

Yeah it's still not ideal admittedly! Maybe I should focus on trying to follow the TEI protocol again then. I thought about maybe trying a 'lite' version of it by taking desiccated liver to get minerals like copper, zinc as well a B-vits alongside the adrenal complex. The protocol includes a lot of copper, which I just don't seem to be able to handle

 

[Helen]

Yeah it's still not ideal admittedly! Maybe I should focus on trying to follow the TEI protocol again then. I thought about maybe trying a 'lite' version of it by taking desiccated liver to get minerals like copper, zinc as well a B-vits alongside the adrenal complex. The protocol includes a lot of copper, which I just don't seem to be able to handle

Look at my previous post I just edited it.

 

[tanedout]

Look at my previous post I just edited it.

Ok thanks good call, I might give the electrolytes protocol a shot with B vits then! I've got everything I need for that, and can try adding in more B1 or B2 in addition to the B-complex.

 

[Helen]

Also as far as bile acids. there could be b5 deficiency. there. and to make COA you need magnesium and cysteine. plus it needs glycine and taurine.

 

[tanedout]

Also as far as bile acids. there could be b5 deficiency. there. and to make COA you need magnesium and cysteine. plus it needs glycine and taurine.

Interesting that you mention taurine, I've just been reading up on the '4 lows' and was just reading it's a suggested supplement to get out of this;

In a Nutritional Balancing Science program, Taurine supplementation is an exclusive recommendation given only to persons whose HTMA test report indicates an All Four Lows pattern. Taurine supplements assist cell membrane function and enhance the body's capability to process out of this pattern.

Four Lows Pattern on a Hair Analysis Test Report
Taurine and the Four-Lows Pattern in Hair Analysis


I've got all the supplements you suggest there, and I seem to know pretty quickly if something is helping with the bile situation or not, so I'll give this a shot before moving onto the electrolyte protocol.

A number of articles suggest the 4 lows can sometimes be due to gut issues, such as food intolerances. I've cut out gluten, dairy and sugar since that hair test was done - I might get another one ordered to see if there are any changes there actually

 

[Helen]

Interesting that you mention taurine, I've just been reading up on the '4 lows' and was just reading it's a suggested supplement to get out of this;



Four Lows Pattern on a Hair Analysis Test Report
Taurine and the Four-Lows Pattern in Hair Analysis


I've got all the supplements you suggest there, and I seem to know pretty quickly if something is helping with the bile situation or not, so I'll give this a shot before moving onto the electrolyte protocol.

A number of articles suggest the 4 lows can sometimes be due to gut issues, such as food intolerances. I've cut out gluten, dairy and sugar since that hair test was done - I might get another one ordered to see if there are any changes there actually

You could have a problem with this enzyme Bile acyl-CoA synthetase

It needs CoA to function, this enzyme takes the glycine and taurine and combines it with bile acids and then you get bile.

So may be you have a problem with making CoA. you can look up exact mechanisms how it is made. b5 cysteine magnesium etc.

Plus of course you could have a problem with taurine itself.

to get to taurine you need iron and histdine in CDO enzyme and again cysteine.


it is important to feed most of Bs, since they all work together. Like to get to cysteine you will need b6. , to get to b6 you will need b2.