Autoimmune Adventures

[jaa]

Isn't psoriasis more likely to develop in older people? Is there something else at work there?

There are two peaks of onset for psoriasis. 20-30 years old and 50-60 years old, and psoriasis in the elderly often presents differently than psoriasis in the young.

I developed psoriasis around age 7. I was a bit anxious as a kid, and had been pretty much vegetarian from age 5. My family also has a history of the disease. Are there any particular paths of treatment you think may be fruitful for someone like me?

 

[mattyb]

I developed psoriasis around age 7. I was a bit anxious as a kid, and had been pretty much vegetarian from age 5. My family also has a history of the disease. Are there any particular paths of treatment you think may be fruitful for someone like me?

Family history often indicates more immune system involvement, of a genetic origin. Fighting against that is more difficult. More difficult doesn't mean impossible though.

If you haven't experimented with longer fasts (+10 days) yet, then I would really recommend giving it a go. That's the main thing I would experiment with. At the very least, prolonged indefinite caloric restriction would likely be helpful. Doing one long fast would be a good way to test both hypotheses. Driving down mitochondrial fission means creating an energy deficit. If mito fission is central to your condition, this is necessary to do for a prolonged period of time, but even afterwards you'd likely have to still do things "right".

The main theme of whatever you want to do is to promote more acidic physiological conditions. Tryptase is elevated in psoriasis, which means that psoriasis exists in some sort of alkalosis (whether respiratory or metabolic, I'm not sure - my guess is its transient and metabolic) because tryptase is highest in alkaline conditions. This is no surprise, because healthy skin is very acidic (pH below 5), and psoriasis is not healthy skin. This means things like HCl may have some benefit.

HCl + caloric restriction may be your go to if a prolonged fast isn't do-able due to conflicts with your work/lifestyle. I would keep carb intake low-ish (in order to keep bicarb low), maybe eat most carbs around periods of activity and that's it. Definitely avoid quickly digestible sugars with glucose + fructose (glucose + fructose together enhance CO2 production, and therefore drive up bicarb acutely). Protein and fat can and should be a bit higher, while still making sure you are in caloric restriction. Vegetarianism may not be the best choice to accomplish this, but I'm doubtful that switching to any meat products would be easy on you since you've been vegetarian for such a long time and since such a young age - that could cause more problems then it would solve.

Honestly, lots of these immune mediated conditions with mast cell involvement exist in alkalosis. Correcting the alkalosis can go a long way to fixing the issue. It's how I got rid of my chronic urticaria (more acids, slightly less food, less carbs, more activity, occasional fasts).

 

[mattyb]

Oh yeah, and one last thing I would do while doing things to increase acidity is to avoid high calcium foods. Histamine is only released through a calcium exchange mechanism. Creating a low level acidosis (via fasting, or HCl + cal restriction + exercise) will help enhance calcium excretion, thereby reducing histamine-calcium exchange. The last thing you want to do in this state is to keep filling yourself with calcium - in the long run you are only fighting against what you're trying to accomplish.

 

[jaa]

Oh yeah, and one last thing I would do while doing things to increase acidity is to avoid high calcium foods. Histamine is only released through a calcium exchange mechanism. Creating a low level acidosis (via fasting, or HCl + cal restriction + exercise) will help enhance calcium excretion, thereby reducing histamine-calcium exchange. The last thing you want to do in this state is to keep filling yourself with calcium - in the long run you are only fighting against what you're trying to accomplish.

Thanks for the replies! I've just finished reading the rest of this thread and look forward to following your posts with interest.

I'm planning on trying a 5 day water fast in November just to get my toes a little wet for a 10+ day fast next summer.

I still consume a fair bit of calcium (~120% RDA) but this down from about 240% a month or so ago after reading gbold's posts. Would you advise cutting out all dairy or just reducing it by another half or so? My digestion has improved a lot since reducing my calcium intake.

I guess a bit of history would help.

- I'm not a vegetarian any more. I started eating meat again in 7 years ago, following close to a Perfect Health Diet (which seems close to what you're now recommending for me). I did that for a couple of years until I found Ray Peat. I felt better upping my carbs, but lately realized I do better when I dial back on the fructose and calcium. I've also been eating 2-3 oysters almost daily for the past 6 weeks or so to up my zinc levels which I thought may be depressed from a long life of vegetarianism plus high calcium plus drinking alcohol somewhat regularly (4-6 drinks spread over a week with 10-15 drink nights 1-2 times a month). Basic diet nowadays includes moose, lamb, scallops, oysters, mussels, white rice, oats, bananas, mangoes, blueberries, cherries, whole goat milk, parmigiana reggiano, eggs, pickles, saurkraut, kefir, oj, coconut water, butter, coconut oil, olive oil.

- My ferritin levels were super low. I assume this is from a combo of my previous vegetarian diet and blood donations. Ferritin was 10 ug/L 18 months ago. It was at 30 ug/L 6 months ago and a very recent test showed it at 50 ug/L. I suspect the oysters and reduced calcium consumption played a large role in this.

- I'm fairly active. I do strength training, mobility training, yoga, muay thai, and some jogging/biking/hiking. I tend to hypoventilate though and would focus on doing that while exercising after reading buteyko. BMI is 21.8.

- I had piss poor posture that lead to and was exacerbated by shoulder dislocations. I found it hard to breath, particularly getting air into my left lung, for as long as I can remember. I'm in a pretty good spot now, but it's only recently that I turned that corner. Blood tests from 2 years ago show CO2 levels at 28 mmol/L. The electrolytes at that time seemed normal (sodium = 141 mmol/L, potassium = 4.7 mmol/L, chloride 105 mmol/L).

Once the new year hits and my insurance renews I plan on getting more blood work done. I live in Canada (I think you do to?), are there any companies and tests you would recommend? (Edit: Just ask for arterial blood gas and regular blood venous blood draw with electrolytes?)

 

[mattyb]

I would bring down calcium to somewhere like 500mg/day if possible, the higher you go on calcium just means you need higher phosphorous intake to balance it. I am not surprised at all to hear that you do better on lower calcium and low fructose, as that would keep bicarb down and keep you less alkaline. I think a high carb intake is fine as long as you are active. I consume like 300g/day when I'm active, maybe a bit more. I just take it down on slow days when I'm feeling well rested.

Before you do anything, you need to correct the low ferritin, especially if you show any signs of anemia. More red meat should do the trick. DO NOT go into acidosis when you are low in iron, it will just make any iron deficiency worse. Lowering calcium will help with increasing iron as well.

Don't focus on hypoventilating while exercising, just let yourself breathe naturally. It sounds like you've put some work into expanding your lung capacity and posture, which is great. You are in a good place, so your body will likely correct itself appropriately. When you go into more mild acidosis by following the outline I gave, you will find yourself hyperventilating more often, and that is fine. Your body is just trying to get rid of the CO2 to achieve pH balance, and stimulation from adrenaline when you are in a low energy state will increase ventilation rate. Just let that happen. Forcing yourself to hypoventilate can sometimes cause a compensatory metabolic alkalosis, and that's not what we want to happen. We need to train the kidneys over time to produce less bicarb, and by retaining CO2 you are doing the opposite (kidneys think we need more bicarb). We need to get CO2 lower AND bicarb lower. Once they are balanced, simple things like HCl (digestion, supps), phosphoric acid/lactate (exercise), fatty acids/ketones (fasting) are enough to push a person into a temporary acidic state.

Yes, I'm in Canada as well. I just get tests through my doc, they usually go along with whatever I ask because I have a good relationship with them. If you can get an arterial blood gas and venous draw (CBC, iron panel, electrolytes w/ calcium) when your psoriasis is flaring, that would be ideal. You may have trouble convincing a doc for the blood gas, as it's definitely not standard for psoriasis. If he asks questions just tell him there's suspicion from some researchers in Saskatchewan that immune disorders with mast cell involvement are exacerbated by either respiratory or metabolic alkalosis. If he's worth his salt as a physician he should know that histamine is exchanged with calcium, and that calcium is forced into the cell when blood is alkaline. Most docs that I've explained this idea to followed along pretty easily (but they were internists, not family docs... sooo...). It's a basic description of the issue, but it should suffice.

 

[jaa]

Thanks again [mention]mattyb[/mention] !

I've got appointment with a GP tomorrow to help interpret my latest blood results so I'll see if she will write the tests for me. My platelets are below range, but my MCH and MPV are above range (had low platelets before but normal MCH and MPV). I assume that has something to do with all the iron I was consuming.

My ferretin is at 50 ug/L now, how much higher would you go?

Should I take HCl or make that greens and ACV and EVOO combo or wait until I get test result back?

 

[mattyb]

Thanks again @mattyb !

I've got appointment with a GP tomorrow to help interpret my latest blood results so I'll see if she will write the tests for me. My platelets are below range, but my MCH and MPV are above range (had low platelets before but normal MCH and MPV). I assume that has something to do with all the iron I was consuming.

My ferretin is at 50 ug/L now, how much higher would you go?

Should I take HCl or make that greens and ACV and EVOO combo or wait until I get test result back?

Greens + ACV + EVOO is fine for now, if you respond well to that then HCl isn't necessary. HCl is necessary in more severe cases of poor digestion and alkalosis. For ferritin 50 ug/L is okay, I think ~100 is better. Slightly low platelets is fine, high MCH+MCV may say something about B12/folate levels. You may benefit from methylated versions of these, or just increasing their dietary intake. I find lots of people are fairly low in folate.

 

[Aleksandr]

Oh yeah, and one last thing I would do while doing things to increase acidity is to avoid high calcium foods. Histamine is only released through a calcium exchange mechanism. Creating a low level acidosis (via fasting, or HCl + cal restriction + exercise) will help enhance calcium excretion, thereby reducing histamine-calcium exchange. The last thing you want to do in this state is to keep filling yourself with calcium - in the long run you are only fighting against what you're trying to accomplish.

Do you mean cellular acidosis or blood acidosis (i.e. what shows up in the vbg)? I thought calorie restriction + exercise was supposed to make the vbg more alkaline

 

[Canari]

http://www.asthma-reality.com/asthme5A.htm

In this page they speak about psoriasis and eczema, (not only of asthma, though it was the first that was treated).
I have personally been in contact with practitioners, and received sessions too, and it also serves a general balance everybody can profit of it. A lot of practitioners are ex-ill persons... like I know one who was already an acupuncturist, and trained in this method after he got cured of eczema, and most are ex asthmatics.

Their highest success is with asthma, 90%, then eczema, and pso is lower but it also works, though diet is important too.

What I know that is not written in the website, is that in pso they find a problem with the left side of the body, the reverse of eczema. The method is about structure, but also uses the meridians (the founder is acupuncturist). Usually the person has problems with pancreas and has a natural tendency to have more than half of the weight on the left foot. Asthmatics and eczema persons tend to be on the right feet, and eczema is more about liver.

 

[jaa]

http://www.asthma-reality.com/asthme5A.htm

In this page they speak about psoriasis and eczema, (not only of asthma, though it was the first that was treated).
I have personally been in contact with practitioners, and received sessions too, and it also serves a general balance everybody can profit of it. A lot of practitioners are ex-ill persons... like I know one who was already an acupuncturist, and trained in this method after he got cured of eczema, and most are ex asthmatics.

Their highest success is with asthma, 90%, then eczema, and pso is lower but it also works, though diet is important too.

What I know that is not written in the website, is that in pso they find a problem with the left side of the body, the reverse of eczema. The method is about structure, but also uses the meridians (the founder is acupuncturist). Usually the person has problems with pancreas and has a natural tendency to have more than half of the weight on the left foot. Asthmatics and eczema persons tend to be on the right feet, and eczema is more about liver.

Cool, I'll take a look. Thanks for posting. What did you use this protocol for?

 

[mattyb]

Do you mean cellular acidosis or blood acidosis (i.e. what shows up in the vbg)? I thought calorie restriction + exercise was supposed to make the vbg more alkaline

Not all. Cal restriction and exercise will make the blood more acidic. Exercise directly raises lactate, phosphoric acid, and carbonic acid. Caloric restriction increases acidity, which is what allows tissues to release minerals into the bloodstream for excretion. Tissues retain minerals in alkalosis. Ultimately though, caloric restriction/fasting/exercise aid in balancing CO2 output and bicarb formation, instead of one being biased over the other. Both extreme acidosis and alkalosis cause severe problems.

All the digestive enzymes operate best at alkaline pH, and there are theories that the postprandial state is an alkaline state. This paper is super interesting, just read it earlier today.
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0306987794900442).

 

[Aleksandr]

Do you mean cellular acidosis or blood acidosis (i.e. what shows up in the vbg)? I thought calorie restriction + exercise was supposed to make the vbg more alkaline

Not all. Cal restriction and exercise will make the blood more acidic. Exercise directly raises lactate, phosphoric acid, and carbonic acid. Caloric restriction increases acidity, which is what allows tissues to release minerals into the bloodstream for excretion. Tissues retain minerals in alkalosis. Ultimately though, caloric restriction/fasting/exercise aid in balancing CO2 output and bicarb formation, instead of one being biased over the other. Both extreme acidosis and alkalosis cause severe problems.

All the digestive enzymes operate best at alkaline pH, and there are theories that the postprandial state is an alkaline state. This paper is super interesting, just read it earlier today.
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0306987794900442).

This is so weird. Hahaha theme of this forum sometimes. When you think you understand something, the opposite is true.


I played around with a capnometer for a bit before, and I noticed this trend:
If i just woke up or hadn't eaten for awhile, i had lower co2 readings. If i just ate (especially something sugary like orange juice, as i was on the RP diet them) it would spike my co2 readings really high.

When you exercise you hyperventilate - this expels co2 doesn't it? I agree lactate does increase though. Perhaps this is a balancing thing - when you first start exercising, your lactate goes up, then you become more acidic, then you start to hyper ventilate and release bicarb, then when you finish exercising you still hyperventilate for awhile, maybe this then makes your blood more on the alkaline side afterwards? It seems like its balancing anyway. Correct me if i'm wrong, i don't know that much about this subject but its very interesting.

"tissue retain minerals in alkalosis" is this true? I thought on the hair tests, those retaining minerals were in slow oxidation... aka high blood co2 (well, thats what gbolduev says anyway).

"caloric restriction/fasting/exercise aid in balancing CO2 output and bicarb formation, instead of one being biased over the other" do you disagree with gbolduevs ideas? he says that for fast oxidation you shouldn't fast / exercise - not that it will have a balancing effect.

 

[mattyb]

High blood CO2 comes with compensatory high bicarb. You want low CO2 and low bicarb (well, normal). Bicarb and CO2 are always balanced unless the imbalance is temporary or something is really wrong in terms of fluid loss, kidney function, etc.

When you eat sugar, your body produces lots of CO2, but then your body corrects the acidity by using carbonic anhydrase in the blood to convert the CO2 to bicarb (HCO3) and not carbonic acid (H2CO3). This makes you more alkaline. Over a few days of this, the kidneys are also stimulated to synthesize more bicarb directly to combat the acidity, pushing the person towards alkalosis. Then if CO2 drops because you aren't eating sugar or something, you end up in alkalosis for a bit because your kidneys are used to pumping out bicarb.

So yes, a "slow oxidizer" (I hate that term lol) is retaining minerals and it's because they produce too much CO2 which makes a lot of bicarb and eventually makes them more alkaline.

Keep in mind that throughout all of this, every organ has a different base pH. So the liver and pancreas enjoy more alkaline environments (around 8), while the skin and stomach like it more acidic (5 and 2 respectively). Between all of this, the blood balances out to around neutral to slightly alkaline at 7.4. This means that biasing oneself towards either alkalosis or acidosis means favoring a set of organs over another, so certain areas may suffer depending on the overall state.

Just keep in mind as well that the body balances metabolic state with the respiratory system. So a person in metabolic acidosis may have a compensatory response, and that response may be respiratory alkalosis. I think that example is okay, it's late and I'm tired so maybe it's a shitty example, but the point is that there's almost always compensation.

 

[Aleksandr]

High blood CO2 comes with compensatory high bicarb. You want low CO2 and low bicarb (well, normal). Bicarb and CO2 are always balanced unless the imbalance is temporary or something is really wrong in terms of fluid loss, kidney function, etc.

When you eat sugar, your body produces lots of CO2, but then your body corrects the acidity by using carbonic anhydrase in the blood to convert the CO2 to bicarb (HCO3) and not carbonic acid (H2CO3). This makes you more alkaline. Over a few days of this, the kidneys are also stimulated to synthesize more bicarb directly to combat the acidity, pushing the person towards alkalosis. Then if CO2 drops because you aren't eating sugar or something, you end up in alkalosis for a bit because your kidneys are used to pumping out bicarb.

So yes, a "slow oxidizer" (I hate that term lol) is retaining minerals and it's because they produce too much CO2 which makes a lot of bicarb and eventually makes them more alkaline.

Keep in mind that throughout all of this, every organ has a different base pH. So the liver and pancreas enjoy more alkaline environments (around 8), while the skin and stomach like it more acidic (5 and 2 respectively). Between all of this, the blood balances out to around neutral to slightly alkaline at 7.4. This means that biasing oneself towards either alkalosis or acidosis means favoring a set of organs over another, so certain areas may suffer depending on the overall state.

Just keep in mind as well that the body balances metabolic state with the respiratory system. So a person in metabolic acidosis may have a compensatory response, and that response may be respiratory alkalosis. I think that example is okay, it's late and I'm tired so maybe it's a shitty example, but the point is that there's almost always compensation.

Super interesting! Thanks for the reply.

So it would be accurate to say; a slow oxidiser (you know deep down you love it) is more likely to have good liver and pancreas function, while the fast oxidiser is more likely to have a good skin and stomach function?

 

[Canari]

I could not find for Canada, but there are practitioners there. Actually, the method seems to be used in some osteopathic school in Canada. They were the first in the world to acknowledge the method. Do not read the founder complains, it is what blocks what he wants and he does not know it... He is a very hurt person that hurts too and somehow paranoiac. The course is a one to one person, and they give the title only to persons that can perform.

It seems that this method helps in other conditions, when they are triggered by structure.

I have the tendency to twist towards the right, I have more weight on my left foot, and I had neck problems. Part of the protocol, that they unfold like a cata in martial arts, includes the neck. Some type of asthma depends on it, because you can have the asthmatic problem when you inhale or exhale, and it is not at all the same issue. I have no asthma but sensitive lungs, mainly with molds.

I also had plaques on my right knee and the hair neck line. No diagnosis for this though.

It really helped for my knees problems, as the problem comes from above. But then all practitionners came to a point where I could not get better, because of muscles habits of contracting. That is when I discovered somatic experiencing, that finally helped go through the neck trauma. As muscles are in chains, I still have to work more, so that the never ending spiral turns the correct side!

 

[Canari]

Do you have other auto-immune problems?

 

[jaa]

I could not find for Canada, but there are practitioners there. Actually, the method seems to be used in some osteopathic school in Canada. They were the first in the world to acknowledge the method. Do not read the founder complains, it is what blocks what he wants and he does not know it... He is a very hurt person that hurts too and somehow paranoiac. The course is a one to one person, and they give the title only to persons that can perform.

It seems that this method helps in other conditions, when they are triggered by structure.

I have the tendency to twist towards the right, I have more weight on my left foot, and I had neck problems. Part of the protocol, that they unfold like a cata in martial arts, includes the neck. Some type of asthma depends on it, because you can have the asthmatic problem when you inhale or exhale, and it is not at all the same issue. I have no asthma but sensitive lungs, mainly with molds.

I also had plaques on my right knee and the hair neck line. No diagnosis for this though.

It really helped for my knees problems, as the problem comes from above. But then all practitionners came to a point where I could not get better, because of muscles habits of contracting. That is when I discovered somatic experiencing, that finally helped go through the neck trauma. As muscles are in chains, I still have to work more, so that the never ending spiral turns the correct side!

Oh yeah my ribcage and to a lesser extent my hips are rotated to the right. I am gradually resolving this and it is allowing me to breathe as well as perform athletic movements much more easily.

No other auto-immune conditions. I had asthma as a child, but that has long since disappeared.

 

[mattyb]

Super interesting! Thanks for the reply.

So it would be accurate to say; a slow oxidiser (you know deep down you love it) is more likely to have good liver and pancreas function, while the fast oxidiser is more likely to have a good skin and stomach function?

Honestly, I wish people could see the difference between my fiance and me. We are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum.

She has naturally great skin and hair, my skin and hair is naturally pretty poor.
She can digest anything no problem, heavy foods make me feel bloated.
She's naturally explosive and athletic, I have great natural endurance.
She has to pee all the time, I barely need to.
She has a high HR and breathing rate, and I have low HR and breathing rate.
She's super flexible, I had to train like crazy to maintain my flexibility.
She does well on a Peat-ish diet (she always had one just following her own cues), I do better on the opposite.
I can go without eating for days and feel fine, she can't last longer than three hours without food or coffee.
I can run long distance no problem, she runs half a mile and is winded.
I'm not very emotional, she's very emotional
I have a family history with no bone disease (and crazy mineralized bones myself), she has a family history of early-onset osteoperosis.
I gets tired from too much sun, she gets crazy energized.
I never worry, she always does.
I'm more likely to be depressed/lethargic, she's more likely to be anxious.

But we're both healthy, happy, energetic, and productive.

We are literally a case study on two people, one person with high sympathetic nervous system activity and tendencies towards acidosis (her), and one person with low sympathetic nervous system activity and tendencies towards alkalosis (me).

 

[Goose12]

Super interesting! Thanks for the reply.

So it would be accurate to say; a slow oxidiser (you know deep down you love it) is more likely to have good liver and pancreas function, while the fast oxidiser is more likely to have a good skin and stomach function?

Honestly, I wish people could see the difference between my fiance and me. We are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum.

She has naturally great skin and hair, my skin and hair is naturally pretty poor.
She can digest anything no problem, heavy foods make me feel bloated.
She's naturally explosive and athletic, I have great natural endurance.
She has to pee all the time, I barely need to.
She has a high HR and breathing rate, and I have low HR and breathing rate.
She's super flexible, I had to train like crazy to maintain my flexibility.
She does well on a Peat-ish diet (she always had one just following her own cues), I do better on the opposite.
I can go without eating for days and feel fine, she can't last longer than three hours without food or coffee.
I can run long distance no problem, she runs half a mile and is winded.
I'm not very emotional, she's very emotional
I have a family history with no bone disease (and crazy mineralized bones myself), she has a family history of early-onset osteoperosis.
I gets tired from too much sun, she gets crazy energized.
I never worry, she always does.
I'm more likely to be depressed/lethargic, she's more likely to be anxious.

But we're both healthy, happy, energetic, and productive.

We are literally a case study on two people, one person with high sympathetic nervous system activity and tendencies towards acidosis (her), and one person with low sympathetic nervous system activity and tendencies towards alkalosis (me).

I just wanted to comment that the description of your fiance was exactly me Pre pfs, and post pfs I was exactly the same as you. Now I am slowly getting back to Pre pfs. One of the biggest things during pfs was it was extremely easy to fast, but now it's becoming nearly impossible.

 

[mattyb]

I just wanted to comment that the description of your fiance was exactly me Pre pfs, and post pfs I was exactly the same as you. Now I am slowly getting back to Pre pfs. One of the biggest things during pfs was it was extremely easy to fast, but now it's becoming nearly impossible.

This would make sense, since PFS is essentially a state of alkalosis with volume contraction and low SNS activity.

The difference between me and someone with PFS is that my sex drive/libido is just fine, because my body naturally takes me towards alkalosis and seems content being there. I just have to push back against it slightly by controlling carb intake, fasting a bit, and getting exercise regularly to keep me in a more balanced state. I always find that when I push back against my natural state a little bit, I feel much better, skin looks better, and my libido raises significantly. But if I push too hard and for too long towards acidosis (fast/CR and exercise too much with stress from work/life) I always get sick and feel better once I refeed and relax.

It really is all about finding balance for everyone in the end.