Do we have any clue what caused us to "get stuck" in pssd/pfs?

[barbaar]

So obviously a lot of people take SSRI's / finasteride without any lasting effects (or do they?) and recover quickly after quitting their meds. Do we have any clue as to why certain people get stuck with persistent side effects? I was reading some of gbold's old posts and found some things about alkalosis, and mineral balance at the time of coming off meds. Does that mean everyone would be susceptible under the "right" circumstances? Or is a matter of genetics, or even just plain bad luck?

Ok sorry this was just mostly me thinking out loud, but I figured if we could home in on the differences between us and the people who don't get stuck, it might give us another angle of attack to beat this problem once and for all.

 

[joekool]

One pattern I've noticed with Pfs is ppl taking finasteride for X time, stopping and recovering ... then after some time, start up again... only to stop and then suffer Pfs.

I'm a 2nd timer and I know of others. The progesterone dominance that we suffer is what causes us to oppose estrogen with prog and the cycle continues downward.

I think we've answered a lot more questions in the last 90 days or so then years elsewhere... but yours remains... a gamble I wish I never took having known of some of the side effects... not all... and def not knowing of the long lasting effects.

Still progress has been made.

 

[barbaar]

Well damn, I actually did something like that too. When I quit citalopram the first time, my depression came back quickly which was something I really couldn't deal with at the time so I got back on. I quit again a month or two later, depression didn't come back but neither did my emotions/libido. For a long time I still felt like on meds, luckily it's finally getting better now, thanks to this board and the amazing people offering all this advice.

Maybe a similar mechanism is at work here as the one that causes 'cycles' to work, the other way around. Basically if you'd cycle SSRI's / progestins you'd push yourself into prog dominance more and more, just like you can use RU/Ella/Licorice root/other things to push yourself out of it bit by bit. Super interesting to think about imo, I wish I knew more about biochem or could actually test things in a lab like gbol :mrgreen:

 

[expendable]

One pattern I've noticed with Pfs is ppl taking finasteride for X time, stopping and recovering ... then after some time, start up again... only to stop and then suffer Pfs.

I'm a 2nd timer and I know of others. The progesterone dominance that we suffer is what causes us to oppose estrogen with prog and the cycle continues downward.

I think we've answered a lot more questions in the last 90 days or so then years elsewhere... but yours remains... a gamble I wish I never took having known of some of the side effects... not all... and def not knowing of the long lasting effects.

Still progress has been made.

Well damn, I actually did something like that too. When I quit citalopram the first time, my depression came back quickly which was something I really couldn't deal with at the time so I got back on. I quit again a month or two later, depression didn't come back but neither did my emotions/libido. For a long time I still felt like on meds, luckily it's finally getting better now, thanks to this board and the amazing people offering all this advice.

Maybe a similar mechanism is at work here as the one that causes 'cycles' to work, the other way around. Basically if you'd cycle SSRI's / progestins you'd push yourself into prog dominance more and more, just like you can use RU/Ella/Licorice root/other things to push yourself out of it bit by bit. Super interesting to think about imo, I wish I knew more about biochem or could actually test things in a lab like gbol :mrgreen:

Going to chip in and mention that indeed, a great deal of PSSD cases (including mine!!) are from this sort of thing. I took them years ago for a few months only, and now have PSSD for 3 months from just 1 paxil. Just 1! But you're right! Perhaps we can use these new methods we've found to push ourselves back in the opposite direction. I believe it.

 

[Canari]

So obviously a lot of people take SSRI's / finasteride without any lasting effects (or do they?) and recover quickly after quitting their meds. Do we have any clue as to why certain people get stuck with persistent side effects? I was reading some of gbold's old posts and found some things about alkalosis, and mineral balance at the time of coming off meds. Does that mean everyone would be susceptible under the "right" circumstances? Or is a matter of genetics, or even just plain bad luck?

Ok sorry this was just mostly me thinking out loud, but I figured if we could home in on the differences between us and the people who don't get stuck, it might give us another angle of attack to beat this problem once and for all.

Yes, for me there is one angle that is not enough considered, and this is the autonomic nervous system. It commands everything in the body, and if your nervous system already has a certain burden, then a last drop can wreck havoc. There are different types of reaction to stress, and I cannot tell you which one makes people more sensitive to what... But you will find clues about it also in Paul Eck's work, as he says clearly that mineral unbalances are related to the unbalances of the nervous system. And this is beyond the endocrine system and adrenaline cortisol or what ever. Neurotransmitters are going through your blood, whereas the nerves are much faster, and they are the ones that make your system secrete such and such hormone. When you regulate your nervous system, then your body regulates everything by itself. That is what happens to people who recover without doing anything special after quitting meds.

 

[Shadow]

One pattern I've noticed with Pfs is ppl taking finasteride for X time, stopping and recovering ... then after some time, start up again... only to stop and then suffer Pfs.

I'm a 2nd timer and I know of others. The progesterone dominance that we suffer is what causes us to oppose estrogen with prog and the cycle continues downward.

I think we've answered a lot more questions in the last 90 days or so then years elsewhere... but yours remains... a gamble I wish I never took having known of some of the side effects... not all... and def not knowing of the long lasting effects.

Still progress has been made.

Same pattern with PSSD, including myself.

 

[expendable]

One pattern I've noticed with Pfs is ppl taking finasteride for X time, stopping and recovering ... then after some time, start up again... only to stop and then suffer Pfs.

I'm a 2nd timer and I know of others. The progesterone dominance that we suffer is what causes us to oppose estrogen with prog and the cycle continues downward.

I think we've answered a lot more questions in the last 90 days or so then years elsewhere... but yours remains... a gamble I wish I never took having known of some of the side effects... not all... and def not knowing of the long lasting effects.

Still progress has been made.

Same pattern with PSSD, including myself.

Really, how many "first-timers" are there in both communities? Is there any information?

 

[IHateFin]

I'm an interesting case; i took finasteride which stopped my hairloss in its tracks then out of nowhere ACCELORATED my hairloss like crazy dht itch again and I didn't have any sides from fin other than reduced ejaculate but minor at most. I tapered off and my hairloss stopped then came back as expected cuz I was off finasteride so I hopped back on and 4 months later I felt awful and I quit and felt amazing then crashed.... and here I am lol

A lot of improvement has been made especially in light of gboldev helping to show me that this is a progesterone issue.

 

[IHateFin]

I have read that 70% of erectile dysfunction is related to progesterone.

 

[expendable]

I'm an interesting case; i took finasteride which stopped my hairloss in its tracks then out of nowhere ACCELORATED my hairloss like crazy dht itch again and I didn't have any sides from fin other than reduced ejaculate but minor at most. I tapered off and my hairloss stopped then came back as expected cuz I was off finasteride so I hopped back on and 4 months later I felt awful and I quit and felt amazing then crashed.... and here I am lol

A lot of improvement has been made especially in light of gboldev helping to show me that this is a progesterone issue.

another on/off/on/crash case

 

[jacknap]

yeah what the fuck is with that on/off/on crash shit?

I might be going through it again via milk thistle. fingers crossed just a temporary dip.

I binned it after finding out it was anti-androgen

I got almost like temporary pfs from kratom in terms of just libido. my libido came back after 2 weeks. I think the 2nd time is just our body maybe not able to handle the constant jerking around of androgens

 

[IHateFin]

I'm an interesting case; i took finasteride which stopped my hairloss in its tracks then out of nowhere ACCELORATED my hairloss like crazy dht itch again and I didn't have any sides from fin other than reduced ejaculate but minor at most. I tapered off and my hairloss stopped then came back as expected cuz I was off finasteride so I hopped back on and 4 months later I felt awful and I quit and felt amazing then crashed.... and here I am lol

A lot of improvement has been made especially in light of gboldev helping to show me that this is a progesterone issue.

another on/off/on/crash case

Yeah :/
I can't wait til I'm slick bald n rid of this new full head of hair curse and I'm so horny I'd fuck a hole in the wall :lol:

 

[Canari]

One day or another, even if not consciously, you will have to come to it... the mere explanation of those on and off, or when you say "later I felt awful and I quit and felt amazing then crashed", is very easy: the nervous system is making pendulations. Awful, amazing, crash. But when you crash, your nervous system is fuqued up and then your pendulations become limited, and you cannot stand the bad, and when you cannot stand the bad, you cannot stand the good! The finest tuning of Symp and PSymp is in sexuality, because they do not alternate same as in exercise and rest. When the nervous system can stand more, then you can have a very long orgasm without ejaculation and without having to make an effort for this. Obviously, ejaculation finishes with pleasure, and your system does this because it cannot stand an extreme pleasure. All in our bodies is orchestrated by our ANS, all. Getting stuck is one part of it. You do not know because you did not study it, and doctors do not study it, and neuroscience sometimes focuses more on the limbic than than on the ANS... But the scientific proves are there, and also the clinic proves. Apart from learning, it is free and you even use it everyday already, and you can just make it work better by knowing how it works, and it is easier to learn enough than learning the kreb cycle!

 

[barbaar]

One pattern I've noticed with Pfs is ppl taking finasteride for X time, stopping and recovering ... then after some time, start up again... only to stop and then suffer Pfs.

I'm a 2nd timer and I know of others. The progesterone dominance that we suffer is what causes us to oppose estrogen with prog and the cycle continues downward.

I think we've answered a lot more questions in the last 90 days or so then years elsewhere... but yours remains... a gamble I wish I never took having known of some of the side effects... not all... and def not knowing of the long lasting effects.

Still progress has been made.

Same pattern with PSSD, including myself.

Really, how many "first-timers" are there in both communities? Is there any information?

This would be interesting to find out. We should be careful not to draw any conclusions just from this thread since it's easy to say "me too!". Confirmation bias is real.


[mention]Canari[/mention] I think you have a point, I experienced something similar to what you're saying, a week or two after I quit meds I was feeling really good for a few days, only to crash hard later. But I think saying "the nervous system is making pendulations", while not a bad statement, is a view that is too "high level". We need to figure out how and why it is doing this, and eventually how to get it unstuck. Progresterone seems to be the most promising lead on this by far. Either way I personally think it's all interrelated, endocrine system, ANS, neurotransmitters/steroids, etc.. A change in one of the systems will affect the others, in complex and perhaps unintuitive ways. Up to us to figure it out!

 

[Jaxx]

I also got it when i switched ssri, with a short break in between. I actually was returning to normal state shortly during the break. Difficult to say if i wouldve crashed even without the 2nd ssri. Interesting simularity...

 

[Shadow]

[mention]barbaar[/mention] youre absolutely right!

For PSSD the intuitive way was to blame the 5HT receptors, because SSRIs mess with them, but what SSRIs do too is fucking with the neurosteroidogenic enzymes(3a-HSD, 3b-HSD) too, and as far as I know, if you mess with neurosteroids, a cascading of weird things can happen! I started a post about Allopregnanolone here, probably it isnt the culprit for we being stuck but I bet it is the major culprit for the symptoms. Finasteride, SSRIs, Mirtazapine and Isotretinoin all fucks with Allo. Allo have modulatory effect over glutamate and GABA, which was observed to be messed up after SSRIs discontinuation, [mention]gbolduev[/mention] talked about it regarding PFS too. This give a big picture of the mess it could cause.

Read the abstract:
http://www.pnas.org/content/96/23/13512

 

[Canari]

I think saying "the nervous system is making pendulations", while not a bad statement, is a view that is too "high level". We need to figure out how and why it is doing this, and eventually how to get it unstuck.
A change in one of the systems will affect the others, in complex and perhaps unintuitive ways. Up to us to figure it out!

I know this is too high level.... But I need interest and questions so that I can answer...
But reading a hair test is also high level, and we do the tests. Ok for the ANS, we have to go at an un-palpable feeling, but you all feel the shit inside! You also feel when you feel good. And with this we start. I have done years of studies about behavior, though not full time study, but I do not count the workshops, made exercises etc. I know how it works and how is is overstated!

You can read a lot of free stuff in irenelyon.com I do not mean this will replace the trials you do, but that you will go over the body stress it implies much better. I even think you will have to do less rounds. I tired ANS will not let you recover that well! There is a social shame about it, as we are told to be strong! Forget about shame, this is your health first!

Pendulation means that you go from one side to the other, and the more you can stand extremes, the more your nervous system is resilient. If your nervous system is not strong enough, then you crash. You know this is true because other people do not crash after the same drugs... Awake and asleep is a sort of pendulation too. Being active and rest too. Increase heart beats and slowing heart bits... The mess is when the system cannot stand the extremes, neither of activation, neither relax.

If you want to figure it out, you have to trust me to a certain point, that I know what it is, and then we can talk and I can explain, and I can do it by starting with what is understood already, so not at the high level directly.

If you want to understand this part of your body function, you have to do it from the visible behavior and not names of hormones etc!

A change affects all, true, and the major change to reach is the nervous system. You have seen that people can regain balance by dosing products, gbolduev proposes to dose minerals with the system coming from Eck. I agree, but your path will be easier if you act upon the ANS, as this is the master piece. Also, when you do this, you gain a power for life that is greater, and a knowledge to know how to release stress every day, without spending any time in any exercise.

 

[wuf]

I think saying "the nervous system is making pendulations", while not a bad statement, is a view that is too "high level". We need to figure out how and why it is doing this, and eventually how to get it unstuck.
A change in one of the systems will affect the others, in complex and perhaps unintuitive ways. Up to us to figure it out!

I know this is too high level.... But I need interest and questions so that I can answer...
But reading a hair test is also high level, and we do the tests. Ok for the ANS, we have to go at an un-palpable feeling, but you all feel the shit inside! You also feel when you feel good. And with this we start. I have done years of studies about behavior, though not full time study, but I do not count the workshops, made exercises etc. I know how it works and how is is overstated!

You can read a lot of free stuff in irenelyon.com I do not mean this will replace the trials you do, but that you will go over the body stress it implies much better. I even think you will have to do less rounds. I tired ANS will not let you recover that well! There is a social shame about it, as we are told to be strong! Forget about shame, this is your health first!

Pendulation means that you go from one side to the other, and the more you can stand extremes, the more your nervous system is resilient. If your nervous system is not strong enough, then you crash. You know this is true because other people do not crash after the same drugs... Awake and asleep is a sort of pendulation too. Being active and rest too. Increase heart beats and slowing heart bits... The mess is when the system cannot stand the extremes, neither of activation, neither relax.

If you want to figure it out, you have to trust me to a certain point, that I know what it is, and then we can talk and I can explain, and I can do it by starting with what is understood already, so not at the high level directly.

If you want to understand this part of your body function, you have to do it from the visible behavior and not names of hormones etc!

A change affects all, true, and the major change to reach is the nervous system. You have seen that people can regain balance by dosing products, gbolduev proposes to dose minerals with the system coming from Eck. I agree, but your path will be easier if you act upon the ANS, as this is the master piece. Also, when you do this, you gain a power for life that is greater, and a knowledge to know how to release stress every day, without spending any time in any exercise.

Good..
so in practice what would you suggest to do to improve our symptoms?

 

[Canari]

First I would do the same as understanding digestion or leaky gut in order to find strategies: learn about how works this system. Then, when I did, it was like an avalanche of understanding! I could even remember past events and say "Ho, I understand what happened!" Also I started to see peopls's reactions and understand their behavior at very physiological level. Then you also understand better how to use breathing, and how to regulate the ups and downs of feelings. The goal will be to give the body a better support for self-regulation. That is why I indicated the website of irene Lyon.