I will not lose

[P_stashio]

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[P_stashio]

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[IHateFin]

dang man would not be good to lose your job over this.

progesterone is also a hormone that could supress lh and fsh which seem awfully low on your lab results so i think it would be important to test for this hormone as well.

[mention]gbolduev[/mention] had quickly cured himself taking clomid with the combination of cabergoline which is an antiprolactin drug. if youre going to try and take clomid i would either suggest his dosing protocol of 150mg taper to 100 to 50 all while taking caber .25mg every 3 days. i personally prefer enclomid as opposed to clomid since clomid is composed of two isomers one of which is a pure estrogen antagonist (the resason it raises testosterone) which has a halflife of 12 hours and the seconds isomer is zuclomid which has a halflife of 7 days and is purely estrogenic. the issue with clomid alone is that once the enclomid is out the isomer that is pure estrogen will trigger the feedback loop that you now have high estrogen and your test levels will fall again.

see if your doctor will be able to prescribe enlomidiphne instead. also is clomid is all you have to take caber would be good to keep prolactin and progesterone lowered while you try and raise testosterone.
caber is said to increase dht levels 3 fold while increasing test by 30% and i think the reason it does this is due to the decrease in progesterone which is an antiandrogenic hormone that has a high affinity for 5 alpha reductase.

if you have high levels of progesterone as many of us here including myself do then that could be the root of your issue. your high estrogen can be controlled with caber too as prolactin and estrogen can increase each other.

 

[P_stashio]

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[TubZy]

What's up man.

The high estro is probably causing you your low T and possibly low LH as well. I actually had the opposite as you, I had sky high T ,normal E, but bottom of the barrel LH/FSH, but basically correlated to excess prog levels.

I would say you have a few options right now and even just getting your T back up (while lowering E) should improve a lot of your symptoms greatly since low T can cause sexual issues in itself.

My personal opinion, is that everything you mentioned (nolvadex, hcg, aromasin etc.) made me extremely worse and didn't do anything for me.

Actually let me ask you this first, what exactly have you tried so far? I got a bunch of things you can try, but want a little more info first.

 

[P_stashio]

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[IHateFin]

Yah man I took this drug thinking this would never happen. I never really believed a lot of the side effects to be true for a long time because of all the peer journals saying the side effects and PFS are super rare, all the doctors saying they have never had a patient with long term symptoms, etc, etc....... Such bullshit.

I never thought this would happen and if I knew this drug would make me fat, less lean, less muscular, break my dick, increase my hairloss, and fuck up my intelligence..... well then I would have never have taken it obviously. Such a joke this PFS syndrome isn't more recognized. I wish MERCK would update the pamphlet with the side effect "This drug could ruin your life". I think that is a pretty accurate description of some of the stories I have read of myself and other guys on forums.

End rant.

Ok I haven't been tested for progseterone yet so I will look into it. It's tough convincing docs to test for all that stuff. Especially in Canada where we can't just go to a private lab if we are willing to pay outta pocket. Also, clomiphene is super hard to get here....... and I don't even think enclomiphene is a thing yet is it?? I heard it was still in clinical trials.??? not sure.

Caber.. hmmmm never heard of it.

Here is my PCT plan as long as my doc is on board. I plan to control the estrogen rise from the HCG and the Serms with Aromasin.

Days 1-20: HCG 2000 IU E2D. (10 shots total)
Days 1-35: Clomiphene 100mg (50 mg in morning and 50 mg at night)
Days 1-45: Tamoxifen 20 mg
Days 1-45: Low dose Aromasin 12.5 mg E3D (optional)

This is the plane. Mike Scally is the doc who designed it. I just read a paper on it and supposedly on of the few clinically proven PCT that reversed secondary hypogonadism in all the guys who abused anabolics.

I know I know our case is different then anabolics....... but I am hoping that it just fucked me up on the hormone front.

I was gonna possibly run the aromasin for a little bit after my PCT is done to keep estrogen down and keep the test up. Then remove it. Aromasin permanently binds aromatase so the body has to create more enzyme.... So you won't get the rebound like you do with arimidex, etc.

Thoughts?

yeah man the pharmacuticals are the worst!! i feel ya on that! they make dht to be some "bad hormone" when really its the most crucial hormone to male physiology! infact even taking this drug for the purposes of BPH is horrible snce benign prostate hypertrophy is not caused by dht its actually caused by estrogen indicated by the fact that these inflamed prostates actually lack 5 alpha reductatse and studies show that BPH can actuially be treated with exogenous DHT.

end og my own rant lol
yeah PFS is a mother fucker. i thought there was no way my body with how young and alpha i was could be suseptable to these side effects. boy was i wrong.

yeah enclomid is in trials and it sold overseas, but there are research chem sites that have it in liquid state. [mention]TubZy[/mention] got some from geopeptides i believe and they are running a promo which i believe is the code "promo" lol
yeah i posted in our source talk section on a site that you can order caber from. its prescribed to lower prolactin.

i would not recommend taking an antiestrogen as it makes us PFS sufferers feel worse. most of us have now been altered to where progesterone is used to reduce or control estrogen as opposed to DHT and some of us with low estrogen already dont need to further lower it.if your estrogen is high then an indirect way of lowering it would be to lower your prolactin and there are many suppliments that can help do so like mucana and zinc for example.
saw plametto which also causes pfs binds to progesterone receptors and lowers estrogen so since fin works similarly estrogen lowering should not be done directly but rather indirectly by correcting the progesterone and progesterone receptor issue. there is another member on here by the nme of [mention]jacknap[/mention] who is also in canada and has confirmed that progesterone is not available for testing for men for some reason.

i think that is an excellent PCT and i have run a pct almost exactly identical to that one which was 500iu of HCG everyday followed by Nolvadex 20mg for 3 weeks. only issue is it didn't cure me which i theorize due to the fact that messed up progesterone/ progesterone receptors werent addressed. if you go this route i would suggest taking a low dose ru486 to make sure that your progesterone is lowered and some sensitivity brought back to its receptors.

finasteride most likely heavily downregulates progesterone receptors so we crank out more of it to hit those fried receptors. only issue is now we have a heavy amount of an antiandrogen hormone being produced along with a slew of negative affects due to alterations in the prog receptors such as alterations in the glucocorticoid receptors and androgen receptors.

PFS is more a game of receptor balancing than it is a game of hormone balancing as the hormones will balance once receptors are addressed properly.

 

[P_stashio]

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[P_stashio]

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[IHateFin]

yeah man be careful with the masterbation since the prolactin release from orgasm is not easily cleared in our PFS bodies.

 

[TubZy]

I haven't tried anything other then the basics....

Getting good sleeps
Trying to not stress
Taking supplements (multi-vitamins, fish oils, tribulus, zinc, vitamin d, I was taking a test booster but it had fenugreek in it which someone told me to avoid..... Also I feel like i felt worse on propecia when I took this to combat sides.... so I think im gonna avoid it)
I work out everyday with weights.

I fasted for 2 days with water more as an experiment. I used to have no problem getting shredded and a day fast would leave me so dry and tight.... but after propecia it is not the case. Too much estrogen I think and combine that with low T it is not a very good fat burning environment. It felt wierd and it was cool to experience I guess. If it weren't for the fact I am very health concious, eat like a damn rabbit 85% of the time and don't drink any booze, eat junk, etc..... then I would have probably ballooned. Still cheat occasionally when i go home to see my family mostly like thanksgiving etc... but mostly very clean eating.

I also had a urologist due a doppler ultrasound. I asked because propecia gave me severe testicle pain and I felt a lump form about a week after starting. Been shaving my nuts for years and no lump..including a couple days prior to fin start... so propecia definitely caused this. Urologist told me it was a vericocele which i expected. He told me I have no scar tissue and that my vasculature is good. The induced erection didn;t go away for 4 hours and I ended up in emergency to get it drained. It was a terrible day boys haha.

Its been 4 months. I will apologize in advance because this will get graphic. but one thing I will admit is that I masturbate way to much. I have always had a crazy crazy high libido, mad sexual thoughts, good erections... I was a horndog prior to fin. Like 3-5 times day. Then when I was on fin I would still do it 3-5 times a day out of paranoid wanking to make sure things worked... then after fin cessation..... still kept it up to keep blood flowing cuz I had lost morning erections/nocturnals. Anyways, i could still masterbate but it needed constant stimulation and it was more to make sure of the status. Not sure if this caused a crash.

Lately I feel my libido has increased but erection quality has gone down. Sensitivity is way down..

So I think I am going to attempt a NOFAP protocol. Maybe some of my problems are due to over masterbation. That might bring back some sensitivity, reduce prolactin, and just give my mind and body a break. Allow the dopamine receptors to recharge a bit.

That is my story. No drug therapy as of yet.

I would drop literally all supplements you are on now, majority of them made us all feel worse and they can actually inhibit your body from recovering (i.e. zinc increases progesterone). Depending on how much money you want to spend you have a few options.

I would say one of these options:

• Short cycle of RU486 (which is still under experimental right now)
  R-Andro (androsterone prohormone)
  10-14 day water fast (resets receptors and hormone sensitivity)
  CD Nut's herb cycling protocol

Also, wanted to note that I also had a varicocele, I had it while on fin and had surgery to get it removed while on fin as well, shit sucked lol, it was definitely from fin.

Yeah, I was the same as you prior to fin, what you need to do is reset your hormones and your sensitivity to them. From my personal experience, a day 10 water fast did wonders for fixing many of the remaining conditions I had especially with cortisol and insulin, which helped make my muscles sensitive to carbs again.

Post fast, I did a week cycle of RU486 (anti prog) and it made me feel normal again like pre fin. However, since it is still in very early experimental stages, a lot of us didn't do it right (no anti prolactin, no zinc or NAD post cycle etc.) so a lot of the gains didn't 100% stick, plus there is talk that a week on RU is too long to be on now. But, if you want to try something quick try R andro and run 400mg a day in two doses, you should feel better or just pick up some of CD's herbs either way you can't go wrong there.

 

[IHateFin]

I haven't tried anything other then the basics....

Getting good sleeps
Trying to not stress
Taking supplements (multi-vitamins, fish oils, tribulus, zinc, vitamin d, I was taking a test booster but it had fenugreek in it which someone told me to avoid..... Also I feel like i felt worse on propecia when I took this to combat sides.... so I think im gonna avoid it)
I work out everyday with weights.

I fasted for 2 days with water more as an experiment. I used to have no problem getting shredded and a day fast would leave me so dry and tight.... but after propecia it is not the case. Too much estrogen I think and combine that with low T it is not a very good fat burning environment. It felt wierd and it was cool to experience I guess. If it weren't for the fact I am very health concious, eat like a damn rabbit 85% of the time and don't drink any booze, eat junk, etc..... then I would have probably ballooned. Still cheat occasionally when i go home to see my family mostly like thanksgiving etc... but mostly very clean eating.

I also had a urologist due a doppler ultrasound. I asked because propecia gave me severe testicle pain and I felt a lump form about a week after starting. Been shaving my nuts for years and no lump..including a couple days prior to fin start... so propecia definitely caused this. Urologist told me it was a vericocele which i expected. He told me I have no scar tissue and that my vasculature is good. The induced erection didn;t go away for 4 hours and I ended up in emergency to get it drained. It was a terrible day boys haha.

Its been 4 months. I will apologize in advance because this will get graphic. but one thing I will admit is that I masturbate way to much. I have always had a crazy crazy high libido, mad sexual thoughts, good erections... I was a horndog prior to fin. Like 3-5 times day. Then when I was on fin I would still do it 3-5 times a day out of paranoid wanking to make sure things worked... then after fin cessation..... still kept it up to keep blood flowing cuz I had lost morning erections/nocturnals. Anyways, i could still masterbate but it needed constant stimulation and it was more to make sure of the status. Not sure if this caused a crash.

Lately I feel my libido has increased but erection quality has gone down. Sensitivity is way down..

So I think I am going to attempt a NOFAP protocol. Maybe some of my problems are due to over masterbation. That might bring back some sensitivity, reduce prolactin, and just give my mind and body a break. Allow the dopamine receptors to recharge a bit.

That is my story. No drug therapy as of yet.

I would drop literally all supplements you are on now, majority of them made us all feel worse and they can actually inhibit your body from recovering (i.e. zinc increases progesterone). Depending on how much money you want to spend you have a few options.

I would say one of these options:

• Short cycle of RU486 (which is still under experimental right now)
  R-Andro (androsterone prohormone)
  10-14 day water fast (resets receptors and hormone sensitivity)
  CD Nut's herb cycling protocol

Also, wanted to note that I also had a varicocele, I had it while on fin and had surgery to get it removed while on fin as well, shit sucked lol, it was definitely from fin.

Yeah, I was the same as you prior to fin, what you need to do is reset your hormones and your sensitivity to them. From my personal experience, a day 10 water fast did wonders for fixing many of the remaining conditions I had especially with cortisol and insulin, which helped make my muscles sensitive to carbs again.

Post fast, I did a week cycle of RU486 (anti prog) and it made me feel normal again like pre fin. However, since it is still in very early experimental stages, a lot of us didn't do it right (no anti prolactin, no zinc or NAD post cycle etc.) so a lot of the gains didn't 100% stick, plus there is talk that a week on RU is too long to be on now. But, if you want to try something quick try R andro and run 400mg a day in two doses, you should feel better or just pick up some of CD's herbs either way you can't go wrong there.

+ 100 :mrgreen:

i have started r andro 400mg with the inositol all in one dose lol i may switch to dividing it to 200mg twice a day.

 

[P_stashio]

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[P_stashio]

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[TubZy]

I haven't tried anything other then the basics....

Getting good sleeps
Trying to not stress
Taking supplements (multi-vitamins, fish oils, tribulus, zinc, vitamin d, I was taking a test booster but it had fenugreek in it which someone told me to avoid..... Also I feel like i felt worse on propecia when I took this to combat sides.... so I think im gonna avoid it)
I work out everyday with weights.

I fasted for 2 days with water more as an experiment. I used to have no problem getting shredded and a day fast would leave me so dry and tight.... but after propecia it is not the case. Too much estrogen I think and combine that with low T it is not a very good fat burning environment. It felt wierd and it was cool to experience I guess. If it weren't for the fact I am very health concious, eat like a damn rabbit 85% of the time and don't drink any booze, eat junk, etc..... then I would have probably ballooned. Still cheat occasionally when i go home to see my family mostly like thanksgiving etc... but mostly very clean eating.

I also had a urologist due a doppler ultrasound. I asked because propecia gave me severe testicle pain and I felt a lump form about a week after starting. Been shaving my nuts for years and no lump..including a couple days prior to fin start... so propecia definitely caused this. Urologist told me it was a vericocele which i expected. He told me I have no scar tissue and that my vasculature is good. The induced erection didn;t go away for 4 hours and I ended up in emergency to get it drained. It was a terrible day boys haha.

Its been 4 months. I will apologize in advance because this will get graphic. but one thing I will admit is that I masturbate way to much. I have always had a crazy crazy high libido, mad sexual thoughts, good erections... I was a horndog prior to fin. Like 3-5 times day. Then when I was on fin I would still do it 3-5 times a day out of paranoid wanking to make sure things worked... then after fin cessation..... still kept it up to keep blood flowing cuz I had lost morning erections/nocturnals. Anyways, i could still masterbate but it needed constant stimulation and it was more to make sure of the status. Not sure if this caused a crash.

Lately I feel my libido has increased but erection quality has gone down. Sensitivity is way down..

So I think I am going to attempt a NOFAP protocol. Maybe some of my problems are due to over masterbation. That might bring back some sensitivity, reduce prolactin, and just give my mind and body a break. Allow the dopamine receptors to recharge a bit.

That is my story. No drug therapy as of yet.

I would drop literally all supplements you are on now, majority of them made us all feel worse and they can actually inhibit your body from recovering (i.e. zinc increases progesterone). Depending on how much money you want to spend you have a few options.

I would say one of these options:

• Short cycle of RU486 (which is still under experimental right now)
  R-Andro (androsterone prohormone)
  10-14 day water fast (resets receptors and hormone sensitivity)
  CD Nut's herb cycling protocol

Also, wanted to note that I also had a varicocele, I had it while on fin and had surgery to get it removed while on fin as well, shit sucked lol, it was definitely from fin.

Yeah, I was the same as you prior to fin, what you need to do is reset your hormones and your sensitivity to them. From my personal experience, a day 10 water fast did wonders for fixing many of the remaining conditions I had especially with cortisol and insulin, which helped make my muscles sensitive to carbs again.

Post fast, I did a week cycle of RU486 (anti prog) and it made me feel normal again like pre fin. However, since it is still in very early experimental stages, a lot of us didn't do it right (no anti prolactin, no zinc or NAD post cycle etc.) so a lot of the gains didn't 100% stick, plus there is talk that a week on RU is too long to be on now. But, if you want to try something quick try R andro and run 400mg a day in two doses, you should feel better or just pick up some of CD's herbs either way you can't go wrong there.

+ 100 :mrgreen:

i have started r andro 400mg with the inositol all in one dose lol i may switch to dividing it to 200mg twice a day.

x2, I forgot about inositol lol..also could be a new option.

 

[IHateFin]

Do you think it will be like this forever the refractory period/prolactin stuff??? I certainly hope not. Do you also think this contributed to my syndrome? Who knows eh?

i dont think this is going to last forever, but the constant elevation of prolactin while you came off fin definitly didnt help you. i personally have gotten to the point where cuming doesnt make me super tired and i cn do it multiple times a day, but refractory period is not prefin yet.

here is the link to the R andro:
https://www.ironmaglabs.com/product/super-r-andro-rx/

 

[TubZy]

Do you think it will be like this forever the refractory period/prolactin stuff??? I certainly hope not. Do you also think this contributed to my syndrome? Who knows eh?

Absolutely not dude, you will be good in no time, getting the prolactin down is easy too. I was like you originally man, I could barely get out of bed 2 years ago, have a super high end job (could barely hold a conversation with a person, had zero focus etc.)..prior to fin I was just good at everything I did (insanely competitive), had insane amounts of energy and libido, super in shape no matter what I ate etc.

Within this past month (fasting, RU, anti prolactin etc.) it all it starting to finally come back fully this time, no just temporary "drug type" fixes. Don't give up your job, stay focused as much as you can and start trying out some of the options we mentioned. I would literally drop all supplements though, I know it is hard to do with PFS, because you feel the need to constantly take shit, a lot of have this problem. Drop the supplements for a week and see how you feel, in the meantime, try out some of the stuff that was mentioned above, you will feel much better.

Oh, yes, R andro is a prohormone

 

[P_stashio]

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[IHateFin]

Do you guys recommend by power PCT. Meeting with urologist this week. I don’t know.... I don’t see how bring test back up and hopefully having it stay there would be a bad thing. If I do it properly should my test levels stay elevated? I don’t know..... I’ll see what the urologist says but mainly he is just good for prescribing shit. In the end it’s gonna be my own plan most likely lol. Hopefully he agrees with what I want to do.

directly increasing testostrone seems like it could help, but due to the messed up prog regulation from pfs could actually exasterbate the condistion as the increase in test can increase progesterone too. problem with pfs is taking things that may help a non pfs sufferer can sometimes make us worse. its very backwards but after understanding what causes this syndrome it makes a lot of sense.

 

[IHateFin]

test is better left increased indirectly like from lowering prolactin or from lowering progesterone and making prog receptors more more sensitive.