I will not lose

[jacknap]

Yah man I took this drug thinking this would never happen. I never really believed a lot of the side effects to be true for a long time because of all the peer journals saying the side effects and PFS are super rare, all the doctors saying they have never had a patient with long term symptoms, etc, etc....... Such bullshit.

I never thought this would happen and if I knew this drug would make me fat, less lean, less muscular, break my dick, increase my hairloss, and fuck up my intelligence..... well then I would have never have taken it obviously. Such a joke this PFS syndrome isn't more recognized. I wish MERCK would update the pamphlet with the side effect "This drug could ruin your life". I think that is a pretty accurate description of some of the stories I have read of myself and other guys on forums.

End rant.

Ok I haven't been tested for progseterone yet so I will look into it. It's tough convincing docs to test for all that stuff. Especially in Canada where we can't just go to a private lab if we are willing to pay outta pocket. Also, clomiphene is super hard to get here....... and I don't even think enclomiphene is a thing yet is it?? I heard it was still in clinical trials.??? not sure.

Caber.. hmmmm never heard of it.

Here is my PCT plan as long as my doc is on board. I plan to control the estrogen rise from the HCG and the Serms with Aromasin.

Days 1-20: HCG 2000 IU E2D. (10 shots total)
Days 1-35: Clomiphene 100mg (50 mg in morning and 50 mg at night)
Days 1-45: Tamoxifen 20 mg
Days 1-45: Low dose Aromasin 12.5 mg E3D (optional)

This is the plane. Mike Scally is the doc who designed it. I just read a paper on it and supposedly on of the few clinically proven PCT that reversed secondary hypogonadism in all the guys who abused anabolics.

I know I know our case is different then anabolics....... but I am hoping that it just fucked me up on the hormone front.

I was gonna possibly run the aromasin for a little bit after my PCT is done to keep estrogen down and keep the test up. Then remove it. Aromasin permanently binds aromatase so the body has to create more enzyme.... So you won't get the rebound like you do with arimidex, etc.

Thoughts?

yeah man the pharmacuticals are the worst!! i feel ya on that! they make dht to be some "bad hormone" when really its the most crucial hormone to male physiology! infact even taking this drug for the purposes of BPH is horrible snce benign prostate hypertrophy is not caused by dht its actually caused by estrogen indicated by the fact that these inflamed prostates actually lack 5 alpha reductatse and studies show that BPH can actuially be treated with exogenous DHT.

end og my own rant lol
yeah PFS is a mother fucker. i thought there was no way my body with how young and alpha i was could be suseptable to these side effects. boy was i wrong.

yeah enclomid is in trials and it sold overseas, but there are research chem sites that have it in liquid state. @TubZy got some from geopeptides i believe and they are running a promo which i believe is the code "promo" lol
yeah i posted in our source talk section on a site that you can order caber from. its prescribed to lower prolactin.

i would not recommend taking an antiestrogen as it makes us PFS sufferers feel worse. most of us have now been altered to where progesterone is used to reduce or control estrogen as opposed to DHT and some of us with low estrogen already dont need to further lower it.if your estrogen is high then an indirect way of lowering it would be to lower your prolactin and there are many suppliments that can help do so like mucana and zinc for example.
saw plametto which also causes pfs binds to progesterone receptors and lowers estrogen so since fin works similarly estrogen lowering should not be done directly but rather indirectly by correcting the progesterone and progesterone receptor issue. there is another member on here by the nme of @jacknap who is also in canada and has confirmed that progesterone is not available for testing for men for some reason.

i think that is an excellent PCT and i have run a pct almost exactly identical to that one which was 500iu of HCG everyday followed by Nolvadex 20mg for 3 weeks. only issue is it didn't cure me which i theorize due to the fact that messed up progesterone/ progesterone receptors werent addressed. if you go this route i would suggest taking a low dose ru486 to make sure that your progesterone is lowered and some sensitivity brought back to its receptors.

finasteride most likely heavily downregulates progesterone receptors so we crank out more of it to hit those fried receptors. only issue is now we have a heavy amount of an antiandrogen hormone being produced along with a slew of negative affects due to alterations in the prog receptors such as alterations in the glucocorticoid receptors and androgen receptors.

PFS is more a game of receptor balancing than it is a game of hormone balancing as the hormones will balance once receptors are addressed properly.

correction @ihatefin you can get progesterone tested in Canada but doctors have to okay it and because there's no reference range, most doctors will scoff at the notion, but you can indeed get it I think.

 

[TubZy]

Do you guys recommend by power PCT. Meeting with urologist this week. I don’t know.... I don’t see how bring test back up and hopefully having it stay there would be a bad thing. If I do it properly should my test levels stay elevated? I don’t know..... I’ll see what the urologist says but mainly he is just good for prescribing shit. In the end it’s gonna be my own plan most likely lol. Hopefully he agrees with what I want to do.

Yeah I agree with [mention]IHateFin[/mention] , the only possible "PCT" they could make sense is Gbol's protocl with clomid. Have you seen that yet?

But, I think you have much better options than that at this point, the clomid protocol with an anti prolactin was the very initial protocol he mentioned to us before we started researching further so much better ways to address it now.

 

[P_stashio]

…………………….

 

[TubZy]

So if I test my prog and it’s normal then we are good???

Also my prolactin never seem d crazy high. Never went above 10 in the tests. During the day however it might have been above 10 due to masterbation which could have lowered T potentially.

Is high prolactin a problem I have?

Prog doesn't necessarily have to high or low, it can just be insensitive and also depends on the amount of potassium in the cell (zinc puts potassium back in the cell), but regardless it would still be good to check, even if it comes back normal you could still have a sensitivity issue. Also, if your E is high, most likely can contribute to elevated prolactin or plolactin spikes.

Check out these two threads, should give you a much better understanding of what we are talking about

http://hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5
http://hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4

 

[TubZy]

And also
http://hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14

 

[IHateFin]

Yah man I took this drug thinking this would never happen. I never really believed a lot of the side effects to be true for a long time because of all the peer journals saying the side effects and PFS are super rare, all the doctors saying they have never had a patient with long term symptoms, etc, etc....... Such bullshit.

I never thought this would happen and if I knew this drug would make me fat, less lean, less muscular, break my dick, increase my hairloss, and fuck up my intelligence..... well then I would have never have taken it obviously. Such a joke this PFS syndrome isn't more recognized. I wish MERCK would update the pamphlet with the side effect "This drug could ruin your life". I think that is a pretty accurate description of some of the stories I have read of myself and other guys on forums.

End rant.

Ok I haven't been tested for progseterone yet so I will look into it. It's tough convincing docs to test for all that stuff. Especially in Canada where we can't just go to a private lab if we are willing to pay outta pocket. Also, clomiphene is super hard to get here....... and I don't even think enclomiphene is a thing yet is it?? I heard it was still in clinical trials.??? not sure.

Caber.. hmmmm never heard of it.

Here is my PCT plan as long as my doc is on board. I plan to control the estrogen rise from the HCG and the Serms with Aromasin.

Days 1-20: HCG 2000 IU E2D. (10 shots total)
Days 1-35: Clomiphene 100mg (50 mg in morning and 50 mg at night)
Days 1-45: Tamoxifen 20 mg
Days 1-45: Low dose Aromasin 12.5 mg E3D (optional)

This is the plane. Mike Scally is the doc who designed it. I just read a paper on it and supposedly on of the few clinically proven PCT that reversed secondary hypogonadism in all the guys who abused anabolics.

I know I know our case is different then anabolics....... but I am hoping that it just fucked me up on the hormone front.

I was gonna possibly run the aromasin for a little bit after my PCT is done to keep estrogen down and keep the test up. Then remove it. Aromasin permanently binds aromatase so the body has to create more enzyme.... So you won't get the rebound like you do with arimidex, etc.

Thoughts?

yeah man the pharmacuticals are the worst!! i feel ya on that! they make dht to be some "bad hormone" when really its the most crucial hormone to male physiology! infact even taking this drug for the purposes of BPH is horrible snce benign prostate hypertrophy is not caused by dht its actually caused by estrogen indicated by the fact that these inflamed prostates actually lack 5 alpha reductatse and studies show that BPH can actuially be treated with exogenous DHT.

end og my own rant lol
yeah PFS is a mother fucker. i thought there was no way my body with how young and alpha i was could be suseptable to these side effects. boy was i wrong.

yeah enclomid is in trials and it sold overseas, but there are research chem sites that have it in liquid state. @TubZy got some from geopeptides i believe and they are running a promo which i believe is the code "promo" lol
yeah i posted in our source talk section on a site that you can order caber from. its prescribed to lower prolactin.

i would not recommend taking an antiestrogen as it makes us PFS sufferers feel worse. most of us have now been altered to where progesterone is used to reduce or control estrogen as opposed to DHT and some of us with low estrogen already dont need to further lower it.if your estrogen is high then an indirect way of lowering it would be to lower your prolactin and there are many suppliments that can help do so like mucana and zinc for example.
saw plametto which also causes pfs binds to progesterone receptors and lowers estrogen so since fin works similarly estrogen lowering should not be done directly but rather indirectly by correcting the progesterone and progesterone receptor issue. there is another member on here by the nme of @jacknap who is also in canada and has confirmed that progesterone is not available for testing for men for some reason.

i think that is an excellent PCT and i have run a pct almost exactly identical to that one which was 500iu of HCG everyday followed by Nolvadex 20mg for 3 weeks. only issue is it didn't cure me which i theorize due to the fact that messed up progesterone/ progesterone receptors werent addressed. if you go this route i would suggest taking a low dose ru486 to make sure that your progesterone is lowered and some sensitivity brought back to its receptors.

finasteride most likely heavily downregulates progesterone receptors so we crank out more of it to hit those fried receptors. only issue is now we have a heavy amount of an antiandrogen hormone being produced along with a slew of negative affects due to alterations in the prog receptors such as alterations in the glucocorticoid receptors and androgen receptors.

PFS is more a game of receptor balancing than it is a game of hormone balancing as the hormones will balance once receptors are addressed properly.

correction @ihatefin you can get progesterone tested in Canada but doctors have to okay it and because there's no reference range, most doctors will scoff at the notion, but you can indeed get it I think.

AH my bad. i stand corrected lol

 

[mattyb]

Hey man. I'm in Saskatoon. Don't have PFS but I am a researcher at the U of S (I'm in a different field though) who is interested in the problem.

You should try and get an arterial blood gas, and then a regular blood venous blood draw with electrolytes. If your doc is open minded you should ask, those test are available here. It can help unravel the issue by letting us know what's going on inside and outside the cell with regards to pH, mineral balance and receptor sensitivity.

 

[IHateFin]

So if I test my prog and it’s normal then we are good???

Also my prolactin never seem d crazy high. Never went above 10 in the tests. During the day however it might have been above 10 due to masterbation which could have lowered T potentially.

Is high prolactin a problem I have?

ive always had prolactin issues after fin which usually are at 10 without masturbation, but even at 8 or 6 could be too high for you since we are all different in hormonal homeostasis.

it may not be an issue, but im sure its not wise to keep masturbating 3 to 5 times a day aha.
if your prog comes back low or normal it may not mean the prog receptors are still not issue, but normally pfs tests come back high end of normal to high above the range.

 

[IHateFin]

Hey man. I'm in Saskatoon. Don't have PFS but I am a researcher at the U of S (I'm in a different field though) who is interested in the problem.

You should try and get an arterial blood gas, and then a regular blood venous blood draw with electrolytes. If your doc is open minded you should ask, those test are available here. It can help unravel the issue by letting us know what's going on inside and outside the cell with regards to pH, mineral balance and receptor sensitivity.

oooohh i hope i could get this done in the US! i would like to know these things! i have never heard of these tests.

 

[IHateFin]

Do you guys recommend by power PCT. Meeting with urologist this week. I don’t know.... I don’t see how bring test back up and hopefully having it stay there would be a bad thing. If I do it properly should my test levels stay elevated? I don’t know..... I’ll see what the urologist says but mainly he is just good for prescribing shit. In the end it’s gonna be my own plan most likely lol. Hopefully he agrees with what I want to do.

Yeah I agree with @IHateFin , the only possible "PCT" they could make sense is Gbol's protocl with clomid. Have you seen that yet?

But, I think you have much better options than that at this point, the clomid protocol with an anti prolactin was the very initial protocol he mentioned to us before we started researching further so much better ways to address it now.

yeah i would say clomid was like gen 1 of protocols haha so i would say we are at like 4th gen right now as far as protocols go

 

[Snell1234]

Yah man I took this drug thinking this would never happen. I never really believed a lot of the side effects to be true for a long time because of all the peer journals saying the side effects and PFS are super rare, all the doctors saying they have never had a patient with long term symptoms, etc, etc....... Such bullshit.

I never thought this would happen and if I knew this drug would make me fat, less lean, less muscular, break my dick, increase my hairloss, and fuck up my intelligence..... well then I would have never have taken it obviously. Such a joke this PFS syndrome isn't more recognized. I wish MERCK would update the pamphlet with the side effect "This drug could ruin your life". I think that is a pretty accurate description of some of the stories I have read of myself and other guys on forums.

End rant.

Ok I haven't been tested for progseterone yet so I will look into it. It's tough convincing docs to test for all that stuff. Especially in Canada where we can't just go to a private lab if we are willing to pay outta pocket. Also, clomiphene is super hard to get here....... and I don't even think enclomiphene is a thing yet is it?? I heard it was still in clinical trials.??? not sure.

Caber.. hmmmm never heard of it.

Here is my PCT plan as long as my doc is on board. I plan to control the estrogen rise from the HCG and the Serms with Aromasin.

Days 1-20: HCG 2000 IU E2D. (10 shots total)
Days 1-35: Clomiphene 100mg (50 mg in morning and 50 mg at night)
Days 1-45: Tamoxifen 20 mg
Days 1-45: Low dose Aromasin 12.5 mg E3D (optional)

This is the plane. Mike Scally is the doc who designed it. I just read a paper on it and supposedly on of the few clinically proven PCT that reversed secondary hypogonadism in all the guys who abused anabolics.

I know I know our case is different then anabolics....... but I am hoping that it just fucked me up on the hormone front.

I was gonna possibly run the aromasin for a little bit after my PCT is done to keep estrogen down and keep the test up. Then remove it. Aromasin permanently binds aromatase so the body has to create more enzyme.... So you won't get the rebound like you do with arimidex, etc.

Thoughts?

In the ray peat forum, gbol says not to use tamoxifen as it is too much like propecia. He also says not to use aromatase inhibitors unless you have high estrogen and low progesterone. So I would get your progesterone tested before going down anything like that path.

As Tubzy said, r andro, RU or the herbs. Keep it simple.

 

[P_stashio]

…………………….

 

[P_stashio]

…………………….

 

[P_stashio]

…………………….

 

[P_stashio]

…………………….

 

[aztec]

Alright, picked up some R Andro. We shall see how it works. As for this RU486. Where do you guys get it from?

http://www.abortionpillsrx.com/mifepristone.html

Ru 486 = mifepristone

 

[P_stashio]

…………………….

 

[TubZy]

Can you guys link me to Gbols protocol? Thanks I couldn’t find it.

Check the threads links I posted before it is all there

 

[P_stashio]

…………………….

 

[mattyb]

Hey man,

Do I have to get the tests ordered through my doc or could I just come to the U of S and get them tested for research. Or pay the fee myself. I just don’t know if my doc would be willing to help with that. What’s your research in?

You can get them ordered through your doc. Tell him that there's good suspicion that PFS is a state of chloride resistant chronic metabolic alkalosis. If he's open minded, he may go for it. Don't think it can be done privately here. I'll look around the U of S to see if I can find someone who would do it. I know an RT that would do the draw, just would need access to equipment for it.

I do research in respirology (sleep medicine).