Tanedout PA Log

[tanedout]

Thought I'd get a log going - I've been following the CDnuts herb cycling, paleo diet routine recently, but the info on this forum has really given me some inspiration so I'm thinking about a fast with progesterone and potentially giving ella a go based on the positive testimonials I've read so far.

Some background - sides from Accutane - loss of libido, ED, brain fog (also the Accutane bonus-side effect of loss of night vision!)

Bloods from a few years back;

- FSH = 2.1 iu/L (1.0 - 9.0)
- LH = 2.6 iu/L (1.0 - 9.0)
- Prolactin = 147mu/L ( < 550)
- Testosterone = 13.1 nmol/L (8.0 - 30.0)
- SHBG = 36 nmol/L (13.0 - 71.0)
- Cortisol = 563 nmol/L (150-600)
- DHT = 4.1 nmol/L (0.9 - 2.90)

Up until recently I was running with a methylation protocol (active B vit complex + 1mg methyl B12 + l-fumarate) which was definitely helping things in the brain-fog department, but it absolutely crushed my potassium. Didn't realise until reading up that B12 in high doses can reduce potassium significantly. Recent bloods;

- Inorganic phosphate - 0.7mmol/L [0.8 - 1.5]
- Serum calcium - 2.40mmol/L [2.2 - 2.6]
- Serum sodium - 143mmol/L [133 - 146]
- Serum potassium - 3.8mmol/L [3.5 - 5.3]
- Serum urea - 4.6mmol/L [2.5 - 7.8]
- Serum creatine - 88umol/L [64 - 104]
- Cortisol = 631 nmol/L (150-600)

- Total white blood count - 4.83 [4.0 - 11.0]
- Red blood cell count - 4.82 [4.5 - 6.5]

- Serum TSH - 0.51miu/L [0.2 - 4.0]
- Serum free T4 - 19.7pmol/L [10 - 20]

I've definitely had/have some liver/GB type issues along with this. Last year I had a week of getting extremely ill about 45 mins after eating fatty food. This went away after eating pretty much just cold potato, sauerkraut, low fat yoghurt for a week - and bizarrely resulted in 2 days of sensitivity returning, but that didn't last. Blood tests at that time showed liver enzymes were fine, but blood pH was acidic.

Recently had some tests on liver/GB function (injected with radioactive dye, fatty drink, 2 hours lying in a PET scanner), but don't have the results back.

Anyone have any suggestions based on the bloods?! I haven't done a hair mineral analysis, but over on the accutane threads everyone doing them last year got sky high copper.

 

[wuf]

Why don't you get progesterone tested, that's should give you more details before to begin any protocol.

 

[tanedout]

Why don't you get progesterone tested, that's should give you more details before to begin any protocol.

Yeah I've asked for it a couple of times already (just on the basis that I seem to feel better when taking it, so I wondered if it was low - this goes back before these new theories), but so far I've not been able to get it tested - I think it's seen as female-only for tests.

 

[wuf]

I would not jump on progesterone so simply...we are talking about the fact that it is the main hormone that can castrate you, but if you can not have the test done for it...up to you.

 

[tanedout]

Definitely makes sense! Seeing as this forum seems to be all about taking a more scientific approach, rather than everyone just jump straight on the bandwagon for everything, I'll get a progesterone test done this week - I've found a place I can get this done without needing to go through a doctor.

 

[Aleksandr]

[mention]Orion[/mention] sounds lik you guys are pretty similar? Same sides?

It looks like you guys are both "Case #1" from here:
http://www.hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5

Since you have high cortisol / potassium

Recommendations for case 1 are:

Case #1 – agonized receptors
1) Clomiphene ED 150mg 3 days, 100mg 4 days, 50mg 2 weeks, 25mg 4 weeks; cabergoline 0.25mg E4D; 2 weeks after start, begin taking zinc gluconate 20-50mg + NAD 500mg + vitamin E
*can substitute enclompihene for clomiphene at half the dose
*can substitute dexamethasone for clomiphene as well
*key is to slowly reduce the dose of clomiphene or substitute
2) Progesterone 50-400mg ED for 1 week w/ calorie restriction; then start on zinc + NAD
3) Magnesium 1000mg + B6 100-200mg + NAD 2000mg + zinc 100-200mg
4) Methylation using Thorne Multi-Vitamin Elite
5) Thyroid hormone + zinc + NAD

 

[Aleksandr]

\


Anyone have any suggestions based on the bloods?! I haven't done a hair mineral analysis, but over on the accutane threads everyone doing them last year got sky high copper.

Where are these accutane threads showing sky high copper? My copper came back low in hair test. But it seems like i could be case 2, agaonised receptors. I also have different side effects (dry eyes / low energy / sore joints) but libido intact

 

[Orion]

\


Anyone have any suggestions based on the bloods?! I haven't done a hair mineral analysis, but over on the accutane threads everyone doing them last year got sky high copper.

Where are these accutane threads showing sky high copper? My copper came back low in hair test. But it seems like i could be case 2, agaonised receptors. I also have different side effects (dry eyes / low energy / sore joints) but libido intact

Like gbolduev mentioned, accutane's end game is elevated progesterone. But seems that people react to this in different ways, depending on their mineral balance when taking it, and also the foods they eat during and after the course.

I think I ended up with low progesterone and insensivity afterwards(with too many receptors), potassium high in cells locking me in this state, and Zn bio-unavailable because of this, meaning retinoic acid production is cut off.

Acne clearing and good skin is related to active retinoic acid(Zn, Moly, B6...), when you have active retinoic acid, you make preg -> progesterone -> cortisol. This allows for thyroid to function, because it allows proper potassium levels in the cell and cortisol for thyroid.

[mention]m_arch[/mention] maybe you are the opposite, high prog, so you need Manganese mainly to balance this downward, and protocol to bring cortisol down, but by lowering Prog you should lower cortisol.

 

[tanedout]

\


Anyone have any suggestions based on the bloods?! I haven't done a hair mineral analysis, but over on the accutane threads everyone doing them last year got sky high copper.

Where are these accutane threads showing sky high copper? My copper came back low in hair test. But it seems like i could be case 2, agaonised receptors. I also have different side effects (dry eyes / low energy / sore joints) but libido intact

Here's one;

https://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/295030-repairing-the-long-term-damage-from-accutane/?page=334

There we a few people that got them, and I believe all had high copper from memory

 

[Aleksandr]

\


Anyone have any suggestions based on the bloods?! I haven't done a hair mineral analysis, but over on the accutane threads everyone doing them last year got sky high copper.

Where are these accutane threads showing sky high copper? My copper came back low in hair test. But it seems like i could be case 2, agaonised receptors. I also have different side effects (dry eyes / low energy / sore joints) but libido intact

Like gbolduev mentioned, accutane's end game is elevated progesterone. But seems that people react to this in different ways, depending on their mineral balance when taking it, and also the foods they eat during and after the course.

I think I ended up with low progesterone and insensivity afterwards(with too many receptors), potassium high in cells locking me in this state, and Zn bio-unavailable because of this, meaning retinoic acid production is cut off.

Acne clearing and good skin is related to active retinoic acid(Zn, Moly, B6...), when you have active retinoic acid, you make preg -> progesterone -> cortisol. This allows for thyroid to function, because it allows proper potassium levels in the cell and cortisol for thyroid.

@m_arch maybe you are the opposite, high prog, so you need Manganese mainly to balance this downward, and protocol to bring cortisol down, but by lowering Prog you should lower cortisol.

Have you had your cortisol checked? I thought for your case you would have high cortisol, since your potassium is so high.
Are you saying progesterone sensitivity = case 1 agonised receptors?

In my case i seem to have a good thyroid ratio (if anything, hyperthyroid slightly) based on hair test.
I seem to have lowish cortisol (i had an old test last year. my cortison was around 250 and the reference range was (100-600) for the AM.
This lowish cortisol seems to correspond to my low potassium

I'm not sure if i have something backwards? or do you have something backwards? Man, I wish this stuff was easier to figure out xD

 

[Orion]

Here's one;

https://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/295030-repairing-the-long-term-damage-from-accutane/?page=334

There we a few people that got them, and I believe all had high copper from memory

Mine is midline, so the opposite I guess; https://imgur.com/a/oPvjl

 

[tanedout]

Ok I’m keen to get onboard with one of these protocols, but I’m struggling to work out what approach to take here, so looking at my bloods (top of this thread), in summary;

• high cortisol (consistently)
• high DHT
• low potassium
• low TSH
• High T4

I’m a fast oxidiser (really fast metabolism, never put weight on). Seem to do quite well using progesterone cream. Getting progesterone tested ASAP, but don't have this yet.

So am I right here that, "Fast oxidizers have high potassium in the cell" and "if Potassium is high in the cell, receptors get down regulated" so potentially taking HCL to lower potassium in the cell (which would raise the level in the blood?) or is it worth doing a mineral analysis first here?

 

[Aleksandr]

Ok I’m keen to get onboard with one of these protocols, but I’m struggling to work out what approach to take here, so looking at my bloods (top of this thread), in summary;

• high cortisol (consistently)
• low potassium
• low TSH
• High T4

I’m a fast oxidiser (really fast metabolism, never put weight on). Seem to do quite well using progesterone cream. Getting progesterone tested ASAP, but don't have this yet.

So am I right here that, "Fast oxidizers have high potassium in the cell" and "if Potassium is high in the cell, receptors get down regulated" so potentially taking HCL to lower potassium in the cell (which would raise the level in the blood?) and possibly using something to temporary block progesterone to up regulate the down regulated PR's?!

it would help to have your progesterone tested to be sure. If you've got high cortisol i think you could be case 1. i'm not sure though

 

[Aleksandr]

Where are these accutane threads showing sky high copper? My copper came back low in hair test. But it seems like i could be case 2, agaonised receptors. I also have different side effects (dry eyes / low energy / sore joints) but libido intact

Like gbolduev mentioned, accutane's end game is elevated progesterone. But seems that people react to this in different ways, depending on their mineral balance when taking it, and also the foods they eat during and after the course.

I think I ended up with low progesterone and insensivity afterwards(with too many receptors), potassium high in cells locking me in this state, and Zn bio-unavailable because of this, meaning retinoic acid production is cut off.

Acne clearing and good skin is related to active retinoic acid(Zn, Moly, B6...), when you have active retinoic acid, you make preg -> progesterone -> cortisol. This allows for thyroid to function, because it allows proper potassium levels in the cell and cortisol for thyroid.

@m_arch maybe you are the opposite, high prog, so you need Manganese mainly to balance this downward, and protocol to bring cortisol down, but by lowering Prog you should lower cortisol.

Have you had your cortisol checked? I thought for your case you would have high cortisol, since your potassium is so high.
Are you saying progesterone sensitivity = case 1 agonised receptors?

In my case i seem to have a good thyroid ratio (if anything, hyperthyroid slightly) based on hair test.
I seem to have lowish cortisol (i had an old test last year. my cortison was around 250 and the reference range was (100-600) for the AM.
This lowish cortisol seems to correspond to my low potassium

I'm not sure if i have something backwards? or do you have something backwards? Man, I wish this stuff was easier to figure out xD

[mention]Orion[/mention] what do you make of my quote above



Looks like tanedut has high cortisol and low blood potassium (but i'm gonna guess high cell potassium).

Have you had a hairtest [mention]tanedut[/mention]?

 

[HerrFisch]

\


Anyone have any suggestions based on the bloods?! I haven't done a hair mineral analysis, but over on the accutane threads everyone doing them last year got sky high copper.

Where are these accutane threads showing sky high copper? My copper came back low in hair test. But it seems like i could be case 2, agaonised receptors. I also have different side effects (dry eyes / low energy / sore joints) but libido intact

Here's one;

https://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/295030-repairing-the-long-term-damage-from-accutane/?page=334

There we a few people that got them, and I believe all had high copper from memory

Thats not sky high. The term "sky high" starts with copper levels being to high for the scale (that’s only 7. I’m at 16 lol)

 

[Orion]

Like gbolduev mentioned, accutane's end game is elevated progesterone. But seems that people react to this in different ways, depending on their mineral balance when taking it, and also the foods they eat during and after the course.

I think I ended up with low progesterone and insensivity afterwards(with too many receptors), potassium high in cells locking me in this state, and Zn bio-unavailable because of this, meaning retinoic acid production is cut off.

Acne clearing and good skin is related to active retinoic acid(Zn, Moly, B6...), when you have active retinoic acid, you make preg -> progesterone -> cortisol. This allows for thyroid to function, because it allows proper potassium levels in the cell and cortisol for thyroid.

@m_arch maybe you are the opposite, high prog, so you need Manganese mainly to balance this downward, and protocol to bring cortisol down, but by lowering Prog you should lower cortisol.

Have you had your cortisol checked? I thought for your case you would have high cortisol, since your potassium is so high.
Are you saying progesterone sensitivity = case 1 agonised receptors?

In my case i seem to have a good thyroid ratio (if anything, hyperthyroid slightly) based on hair test.
I seem to have lowish cortisol (i had an old test last year. my cortison was around 250 and the reference range was (100-600) for the AM.
This lowish cortisol seems to correspond to my low potassium

I'm not sure if i have something backwards? or do you have something backwards? Man, I wish this stuff was easier to figure out xD

@Orion what do you make of my quote above



Looks like tanedut has high cortisol and low blood potassium (but i'm gonna guess high cell potassium).

Have you had a hairtest @tanedut?

Tested my cortisol, it was all normal levels for 24hr saliva test.

I think high hair potassium will correlate with low progesterone (too many receptors), so normal or low cortisol, so case 1

Low hair potassium will correlate with high progesterone (not enough receptors?), and high cortisol, so case 2

 

[Aleksandr]

Have you had your cortisol checked? I thought for your case you would have high cortisol, since your potassium is so high.
Are you saying progesterone sensitivity = case 1 agonised receptors?

In my case i seem to have a good thyroid ratio (if anything, hyperthyroid slightly) based on hair test.
I seem to have lowish cortisol (i had an old test last year. my cortison was around 250 and the reference range was (100-600) for the AM.
This lowish cortisol seems to correspond to my low potassium

I'm not sure if i have something backwards? or do you have something backwards? Man, I wish this stuff was easier to figure out xD

@Orion what do you make of my quote above



Looks like tanedut has high cortisol and low blood potassium (but i'm gonna guess high cell potassium).

Have you had a hairtest @tanedut?

Tested my cortisol, it was all normal levels for 24hr saliva test.

I think high hair potassium will correlate with low progesterone (too many receptors), so normal or low cortisol, so case 1

Low hair potassium will correlate with high progesterone (not enough receptors?), and high cortisol, so case 2

Wait a second. Tanedout has the same sides as you, but high cortisol.
I've got low potassium but low(ish) cortisol. I mean, it was in normal range.

-----------

It was interesting those quotes you put in the gbold's theory thread.

"I think this is where licorice comes into play. Estrogen raises sodium in the cell. So, if sodium is already high *CHECK*, estrogen can’t become sensitive. Licorice lowers aldosterone sensitivity and when you get off, sodium actually falls and estrogen is raised which makes DHT sensitive

antagonizing or agonizing progesterone can do the same thing. Since progesterone effects potassium. And if potassium is high aldosterone becomes supersensitive and if potassium is low aldosterone *CHECK* becomes super insensitive. So, you can say also that progesterone screws up, effects aldosterone sensitivity afterwards which does not allow DHT to work. I basically outline this connection in the theory before. But I think we need to concentrate on this also."

So it seems like it makes sense now. My high sodium could be from accutane = my estrogen isn't sensitive = joint pain / dry eyes. Licorice root is the fix.

Because my potassium is low, aldosterone is super insensitive. Which would be why its so high (and why sodium is so high, since these correlate).


I haven't had my hormones tested. Maybe I need to do that. Man, so much $$$ going out for this stuff atm.

 

[Orion]

I haven't had my hormones tested. Maybe I need to do that. Man, so much $$$ going out for this stuff atm.

Ya I am going to finish up this 40day Breuss fast, take high Prog doses on week one and might include high Prog doses on the last week as well. Break fast properly, and focus on keeping Zn and retinoic acid co-factors high. Then do a hairtest, and figure our how to get bloodwork done.

HAIR: sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, zinc, copper, manganese, molybdenum...

BLOOD: TSH, free t3, free t4, iron ferritin, ceruloplasmin, insulin, glucose, progesterone, estrogen, testosterone, cortisol.

 

[tanedout]

Updated on some tests;

- Did a progesterone last week via an online clinic, but unfortunately my sample arrived 'haemolysed' (think this means the blood has congealed). Hopefully getting this tested again this week or next.

- Cortisol test from last - 711 (150 - 600 range) - this is highest it’s ever been, but is usually borderline high, or high. Other tests (inc repeat potassium, phosphates) done at the same time have to be repeated due to bad samples which is odd and makes me wonder if these were also 'haemolysed'..

- Had a liver/GB functionality test done recently (injected with radioactive dye, fatty drink, scanner etc) and this has obviously come back showing something unusual but I'm not sure what yet and have to go discuss.

- Just received a hair mineral analysis kit so I’ll do this shortly and send off the sample.

 

[tanedout]

This is a weird one..

I decided to try the herbal anti-progesterones route, and over the weekend drank a load of herbal 'fennel' tea to see if I would get any sort of rebound during the week (have done nothing else different, usual healthy diet and sups like cod liver oil etc)

However since Wednesday evening I've been getting pretty constant heart palpitations. They've continued through today, and tend to come and go for a few hours, and I've tried a few things, but they seem to helped by supplementing with zinc (using effervescent zinc tablets with vit C). Tried zinc as I've read heart palpitations can be the result of zinc deficiency. I tried magnesium first but didn't feel that did much.

I didn't even think about this possibly being related to the herbal anti-prog, but I'm wondering if it might be now, seem plausible?! Possible link to zinc being tanked?

Could of course just be a completely unrelated coincidence but thought I'd mention it anyway!