Testosterone decreases brain 5AR1 and lowers allopregnenolone.

[Helen]

@MCurtone Also , lets not forget that GHB is butyrate. you know which is made in the colon and was rec'd in pyroluria treatment.

Butyrate is antifungal. and it is also HDAC inhibitor.

So it could be what separates it from other gaba b agonists

 

[TubZy]

Another interesting this for example tobacco and alcohol both increase neurosteroidd but non of it lasts and just a bandaid although @Walker recovered even still while dipping daily lol.

@Helen Regarding cortisol and acth The effects of smoking on ACTH and cortisol secretion. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Helen]

Another interesting this for example tobacco and alcohol both increase neurosteroidd but not of it lasts and just a bandaid although @Walker recovered even still while dipping daily lol.

@Helen Regarding cortisol and acth The effects of smoking on ACTH and cortisol secretion. - PubMed - NCBI

nicotine increases acetylcholine which increases ACTH, so it is understandable.

 

[Walker]

Another interesting this for example tobacco and alcohol both increase neurosteroidd but not of it lasts and just a bandaid although @Walker recovered even still while dipping daily lol.

@Helen Regarding cortisol and acth The effects of smoking on ACTH and cortisol secretion. - PubMed - NCBI

I always felt really good during PFS when dipping too, like a noticeable relaxation/mental benefit. I leaned on it as a crutch pretty badly. About the only thing that made me feel like I was a normal human early on. Funny how a shitty lifelong habit can do that.

 

[TubZy]

I always felt really good during PFS when dipping too, like a noticeable relaxation/mental benefit. I leaned on it as a crutch pretty badly. About the only thing that made me feel like I was a normal human early on. Funny how a shitty lifelong habit can do that.

Interesting, was it like a daily multiple times per day habit or just like a few times a week (kinda like what @MCurtone is doing with GHB)? And last question do you you still dip today?

 

[Walker]

Interesting, was it like a daily multiple times per day habit or just like a few times a week (kinda like what @MCurtone is doing with GHB)? And last question do you you still dip today?

I’d say more of a few times a week. I tried to be a lot more health conscious about it given that I was following a holistic health protocol (CDs), and there didn’t seem to be anything healthy about it besides how it made me feel.

I still dip on occasion, yes. I’d say a few times a month on average, sometimes a few times a week depending on the time of year and what activities I’m doing. Again, I’ve never had a good answer as to how bad it actually is for me related to overall health. I posted a topic here awhile back trying to figure that out, as there’s lots of propaganda out there that I don’t believe (shrinking dick, etc).

 

[MCurtone]

@Walker @Boris What do you mean by dipping? Is this the PaulWalker that took GHB and cured themselves or?

 

[Walker]

@Walker @Boris What do you mean by dipping? Is this the PaulWalker that took GHB and cured themselves or?

Negative, and we're referring to using smokeless tobacco as "dipping".

 

[blindsided]

your experiences is exactly similar to mine. Libido and sex drive etc is all pretty fine its mental stuff that is still remaining. Poor response to stress, some brain fog (at times worse than others etc.) and sleep, but sleep has improved much better over time since crash.

And I get the same exact response as to steroids. Libido goes up crazy and physical effects are there but mental sides increase way worse. The major thing that I tried that completely fixed mental sides temporarily (as in felt normal again) was RU486 but didnt last once stopping it. It is def cortisol related in the brain side for sure at least in my experience

low card diet and fasting also helped with mental sides

My experience is almost identical as well. I am pretty normal on the sexual front at this point, but still have mental sides like poor stress response, brain fog, and sleep issues. All of these remaining issues have improved quite a bit over the years, but still present to various degrees. Took me almost 1.5 years to somewhat restore my sleep. Still not normal, but much better. I also believe it is next to impossible to begin PFS recovery until sleep has somewhat normalized.

Quick backstory for me: Took fin for around 6 years with zero noticeable issues. One night, 6 years after starting fin (and still on it), had a "stressful" event and boom sides kicked in. Actually it was more an event I was looking forward to and excited, not really stressful, but still probably same to the body. Quit fin a couple days later and sides continued to get worse. Had my cortisol measured a couple of months after PFS and it was sky high 24/7. Sleep went to shit and the bottom fell out. I think most (maybe all) of my sides were a downstream impact of sky high cortisol and sleep deprivation.

I've had PFS for 3.5 years now and things are much better since I have managed to somehow lower cortisol and get better sleep. Still not normal, but 1000% better than I was the first 1.5 years in PFS. I have followed CDs protocol for the last 1.5 years or so.

But, I also personally believe that there are multiple types of PFS and not everyone is in this same boat. I'm not sure someone that gets PFS after taking just 1 or 2 pills is in the same situation as someone who gets PFS years after taking fin and/or only after stopping fin.

 

[MCurtone]

My experience is almost identical as well. I am pretty normal on the sexual front at this point, but still have mental sides like poor stress response, brain fog, and sleep issues. All of these remaining issues have improved quite a bit over the years, but still present to various degrees. Took me almost 1.5 years to somewhat restore my sleep. Still not normal, but much better. I also believe it is next to impossible to begin PFS recovery until sleep has somewhat normalized.

Quick backstory for me: Took fin for around 6 years with zero noticeable issues. One night, 6 years after starting fin (and still on it), had a "stressful" event and boom sides kicked in. Actually it was more an event I was looking forward to and excited, not really stressful, but still probably same to the body. Quit fin a couple days later and sides continued to get worse. Had my cortisol measured a couple of months after PFS and it was sky high 24/7. Sleep went to shit and the bottom fell out. I think most (maybe all) of my sides were a downstream impact of sky high cortisol and sleep deprivation.

I've had PFS for 3.5 years now and things are much better since I have managed to somehow lower cortisol and get better sleep. Still not normal, but 1000% better than I was the first 1.5 years in PFS. I have followed CDs protocol for the last 1.5 years or so.

But, I also personally believe that there are multiple types of PFS and not everyone is in this same boat. I'm not sure someone that gets PFS after taking just 1 or 2 pills is in the same situation as someone who gets PFS years after taking fin and/or only after stopping fin.

So you, @Boris and myself are in the same boat. Same thing here with the stressful event.

So one thing is for sure, neurosteroids are depleted. This is evident in all PFS people, especially the ones who committed suicide. Their allopreg levels are incredibly low. Likely this also has a lot to do with no THDOC. Refer to the flowchart in the thread. No THDOC = cortisol is never deactivated. If cortisol is never deactivated...would that lead to more GR or less GR? What about THDOC? Are there specific receptors for that? Or do they all fall into GR?

Sleep took about 1.2-2 years to recover as well, albeit not perfect. GHB helped the most. Once I got knocked out using GHB and had a solid 3-4 hours DEEP sleep, things immediately improved. Will keep you guys updated on using GHB.

 

[TubZy]

My experience is almost identical as well. I am pretty normal on the sexual front at this point, but still have mental sides like poor stress response, brain fog, and sleep issues. All of these remaining issues have improved quite a bit over the years, but still present to various degrees. Took me almost 1.5 years to somewhat restore my sleep. Still not normal, but much better. I also believe it is next to impossible to begin PFS recovery until sleep has somewhat normalized.

Quick backstory for me: Took fin for around 6 years with zero noticeable issues. One night, 6 years after starting fin (and still on it), had a "stressful" event and boom sides kicked in. Actually it was more an event I was looking forward to and excited, not really stressful, but still probably same to the body. Quit fin a couple days later and sides continued to get worse. Had my cortisol measured a couple of months after PFS and it was sky high 24/7. Sleep went to shit and the bottom fell out. I think most (maybe all) of my sides were a downstream impact of sky high cortisol and sleep deprivation.

I've had PFS for 3.5 years now and things are much better since I have managed to somehow lower cortisol and get better sleep. Still not normal, but 1000% better than I was the first 1.5 years in PFS. I have followed CDs protocol for the last 1.5 years or so.

But, I also personally believe that there are multiple types of PFS and not everyone is in this same boat. I'm not sure someone that gets PFS after taking just 1 or 2 pills is in the same situation as someone who gets PFS years after taking fin and/or only after stopping fin.

Same man, that is why CD nuts protocol (mainly the herbs in particular) never had that really good of an effect on me. By the time I started it my sleep improved a lot naturally and led to an improvement in some symptoms mainly sexual. The herbs for me never really did anything on the mental or sleep side for me but more for physical/sexual side.

That is always why I wrote articles and experiments about the mental stuff that helped me on Swole source. For example, high dose glycine, 5a-dhp etc. This is TubZy btw. And as we know GABA and cortisol are related like GABA facilitating the release of cortisol in the brain.

 

[TubZy]

So you, @Boris and myself are in the same boat. Same thing here with the stressful event.

So one thing is for sure, neurosteroids are depleted. This is evident in all PFS people, especially the ones who committed suicide. Their allopreg levels are incredibly low. Likely this also has a lot to do with no THDOC. Refer to the flowchart in the thread. No THDOC = cortisol is never deactivated. If cortisol is never deactivated...would that lead to more GR or less GR? What about THDOC? Are there specific receptors for that? Or do they all fall into GR?

Sleep took about 1.2-2 years to recover as well, albeit not perfect. GHB helped the most. Once I got knocked out using GHB and had a solid 3-4 hours DEEP sleep, things immediately improved. Will keep you guys updated on using GHB.

How has your hair been during the course of your recovery? As your baseline increases does it correspond with increased hair shedding and oily skin etc?

 

[Mey]

Read post #72 I summarized it a it better. The study shows that GHB has a modulation affect on the receptor rather than strictly just an agonist. Meaning it can adjust up or down depending on the body rather than just say an GABA receptor agonist like Xanax where it will just act on the receptor directly and activate it, which in turn means when you come off the Xanax you have withdrawals type symptoms. I'm not saying you can't get withdrawals from GHB but given its naturally produced by the body it seems to act differently than taking a traditional agonist like xanax, phenibut etc. Which is why your baseline is increasing instead of decreasing when you cease GHB. Maybe dosage and frequency is key too.

I know GHB keeps getting compared to baclofen but even though it technically looks like it act similar people don't react the same at all.

Baclofen - who's tried it?

I tried it last night. It gave me insomnia and restless leg !

 

[TubZy]

I tried it last night. It gave me insomnia and restless leg !

Baclofen or ghb?

 

[Mey]

Baclofen or ghb?

Baclofen 10mg

 

[TubZy]

Baclofen 10mg

Would be interesting to see if you react to GHB the same way

 

[MCurtone]

a 4.5g dose of GHB will be enough to put one to deep sleep for 3-4 solid hours. You cannot stop it, it simply happens. You pass out, and wake up seemingly instantly. The problem with GHB is that you can never know the concentration of grams per ML, and it changes depending on the source. It can be anywhere from 500mg-1g per ML. Xyrem, a prescription is pharma-grade GHB given in 4.5g doses.

Doses are to start small and slowly increase, to avoid thick-headedness, headache and fogginess in the morning, which subsides quickly.

I will be taking a sleeping dose later this week and will report.

@Boris My hair is seems to be the same, sometimes it seems its improving. I do get oily skin but my skin in general definitely aged a bit while having PFS. NoFap and balayam (nail rubbing) seem to keep my hairloss at bay. I may start dermapen as well. I started experiencing very very slow hair loss since age 15 once I hit puberty. Wasn';t noticable until I was 18/19 and its been even more slow since then.

 

[jinstewart]

Hmmmmm...... fellas, have we explored this? @Helen ? The combo of Fin AND a stressful event. Both times I crashed were during the two most stressful events of my adult life. Anyone else have this experience? Could stress and Fin coupled effect with causing the crash?

This is reminding me of something (sorry late to this party.) Recalling the end of last summer, life went a bit like this:

August - Decided to try fin. My thinking at the time being at the merest HINT of sides I'd stop and all would be ok. Remembered reading of people on bodybuilding forum feeling either slightly weird boners or slightly odd stress response. Ordered it, held off taking it a bit.
Late September - Took 1mg/day Tue/Wed/Thur/Fri. Sunday suddenly broke up with my fiancee of many years. For the next three weeks took 0.5mg fin 3x/week (Mon, Wed, Fri.)
September-October - Yes I move fast, yes it was SOON, but the week AFTER I broke up with fiancee I started a relationship with someone at work. We kept each other up LATE chatting and I did notice I felt a little (but only a TINY little bit) drained in an odd way after those nights.
Late October - Sexting one night, boner dropped off. Thought "FUCK this finasteride lark, that's me done." Stopped fin forever. Usual pre-crash story follows, perfect for a few weeks although do recall EXTREME morning/nocturnal wood!
Start of November - Boners started getting weak again. Relative passed away on the Monday, ex (I still lived with) always very tearful at home, new relationship kept me up late. Figured something was wrong though.
November 13th - bit the bullet, called my new gf and told her everything. Horrifying conversation and stress, up VERY late, awful dream, went into work the following day fully crashed.

So yes me too, very stressful time.

 

[Niles]

This is reminding me of something (sorry late to this party.) Recalling the end of last summer, life went a bit like this:

August - Decided to try fin. My thinking at the time being at the merest HINT of sides I'd stop and all would be ok. Remembered reading of people on bodybuilding forum feeling either slightly weird boners or slightly odd stress response. Ordered it, held off taking it a bit.
Late September - Took 1mg/day Tue/Wed/Thur/Fri. Sunday suddenly broke up with my fiancee of many years. For the next three weeks took 0.5mg fin 3x/week (Mon, Wed, Fri.)
September-October - Yes I move fast, yes it was SOON, but the week AFTER I broke up with fiancee I started a relationship with someone at work. We kept each other up LATE chatting and I did notice I felt a little (but only a TINY little bit) drained in an odd way after those nights.
Late October - Sexting one night, boner dropped off. Thought "FUCK this finasteride lark, that's me done." Stopped fin forever. Usual pre-crash story follows, perfect for a few weeks although do recall EXTREME morning/nocturnal wood!
Start of November - Boners started getting weak again. Relative passed away on the Monday, ex (I still lived with) always very tearful at home, new relationship kept me up late. Figured something was wrong though.
November 13th - bit the bullet, called my new gf and told her everything. Horrifying conversation and stress, up VERY late, awful dream, went into work the following day fully crashed.

So yes me too, very stressful time.

I actually started fin because I was in a very stressful period that caused my hair loss to accelerate, which stressed me even more. I'd just moved to the east coast by myself, without any family or friends within hundreds of miles, and had broken it off with my gf for the move. I was abusing alcohol and kratom to cope, too, which I'm sure didn't help. I felt like I was on the brink of adrenal fatigue before even touching fin.

 

[MCurtone]

@Boris I saw on RayPeat forum that you once said:

"I can attest to this thread very much. After reading this a week ago, I've decided to add 5 grams of glycine, 5 grams taurine to my black coffee before the gym and I must say my mood boost is incredible. Like haidut said each of those compounds (caffeine/glycine/taurine) increase 5AR along with the correlated neurosteroids.

I want to add pure niacinimide powder to it as well, but I'm still waiting for it to come in. Has anyone else tried this combination?"
------

Can you provide any update on this? What is your current routine?

I Took G last night but my doses are not working properly, only put me to sleep for 2 hours. I feel relatively okay but not great with only 2 hours sleep overall.