Concerned PFS Log

[Chapman]

@MNK99 is spot on here needless suffering because you hope it'll disappear. Even a prog cycle will likely help, look at @bruschi11 or @Jack17 logs they're both doing great.

 

[Concerned]

Again I can't thank you all enough for your thoughtful input so far, what a community you have here. Sorry I can't respond to each post individually, I'm overwhelmed with everything going on but each and every post is valued. Having people to talk to about this today has helped me tremendously. Must've been extra horrendous for the guys who had this happen to them before a lot was known about it.

Sorry to hear that you are going through this but we have all been there. I recommend a water fast right away to try and rebalanced your hormones. I would fast for 7 days and refeed for at least a week, paleo diet, before trying anything else.

Would a juice feast for 1-2 weeks work approximately as well for this? Even though I have little appetite, the thought of having nothing but water for a week sounds very difficult to me at this time.

I did nothing for months too, I should have fasted immediately (I kind of did, but not extended).
Looking at outlines of recovery regiments alone was extremely scary. Had I done something 5-6months earlier, I'd be back in my primary city,
and working in a good job, and healthy again quicker.

How long was the fast that you don't think was long enough? And is there anything else you wish you'd done sooner?


Can anyone explain what ella and RU are to me? Is RU the same that they use for hair loss or is it something else?

 

[TubZy]

The more I think about it you need to do something now. Fasting, ru, and the electrolyte protocol are a good start. You have nothing to lose to try these protocols while you wait to see if you get better naturally.

After my first crash I did nothing for months and never got any better. I actually slowly got worse until I crashed again. Things did not start improving until I started jumping on protocols.

I strongly recommend ru.

I think you could be right. To be honest, I don't think we really had anyone just come off fin and go on RU, on paper/theory it could potentially prevent PFS from occurring if taken at the right time before the body down regulates itself.

Could be worth trying @Concerned , although shipping takes like two weeks so it could be too late before it gets here. We just don't know the timeline that well as many sufferers here have had PFS for years.

TBH, I don't know if a juice fast would be strong enough. If it were me I would just do a water fast, cheaper and more effective.

 

[TubZy]

Again I can't thank you all enough for your thoughtful input so far, what a community you have here. Sorry I can't respond to each post individually, I'm overwhelmed with everything going on but each and every post is valued. Having people to talk to about this today has helped me tremendously. Must've been extra horrendous for the guys who had this happen to them before a lot was known about it.




Would a juice feast for 1-2 weeks work approximately as well for this? Even though I have little appetite, the thought of having nothing but water for a week sounds very difficult to me at this time.



How long was the fast that you don't think was long enough? And is there anything else you wish you'd done sooner?


Can anyone explain what ella and RU are to me? Is RU the same that they use for hair loss or is it something else?

check out there links in my signature

 

[MNK99]

@Concerned
This was last year and I can barely recall yesterday (not bc of PFS), so I really have no idea how long I fasted in 2017 (2 days maybe), but I have done intermittent-fasting for years. I underate most of last year... but nothing was working - digestion, weight gain etc.

I think I got sick and stopped eating, but I was probably drinking due to stress some of that time. I'd quit drinking and smoking too (only tend to do that
when I'm unimaginably stressed) and seek some sort of help... but whatever help I could find paled in comparison to what's on Hackstasis now.

Anyways more recently, I did juice cleanses (short, mostly ineffective for me). Then, I did 2* [5-6 day water fasts], and then 1*20d water fast consecutively.

I think I'd have kept ru486 on hand, and never have touched finasteride. And fasted earlier for sure...
Fasting earlier would have meant exercising, day-to-day-structure, better digestion and health, and motivation, and clearer thinking earlier too.

Water fast is better I think, if nothing else you'll get in great shape after your water fast, you'll save money, and it should help digestion a lot, and mental symptoms tremendously.

 

[Concerned]

@ConcernedFasting earlier would have meant exercising, day-to-day-structure, better digestion and health, and motivation, and clearer thinking earlier too.

Water fast is better I think, if nothing else you'll get in great shape after your water fast, you'll save money, and it should help digestion a lot, and mental symptoms tremendously.

How can you exercise if your only intake is water though? At what day of the fast should mental symptoms be expected to improve? I went the whole day the other day with nothing but water and felt awful man.


Having bad anxiety again tonight. I'm sitting here and things that usually bring me joy like online gaming hold no interest to me. Can't believe what's happening.

 

[MNK99]

No I meant -- after water fasting. Nina did exercise a bit... I walked and jogged a tiny bit. But I meant, I had a long hiatus (1 year!) from weights and high intensity exercise, until after fasting and refeeding.

If you mean how do you exercise with intermittent fasting, basically that's way easier than water fasting.

I can't give you an exact date unfortunately, man. I have a supposed dual-diagnosis too, so my mood and mental effects may have been extra bad.
I also was on a medication (mood stabilizer) that stopped working, once I started finasteride... so my case is a bit different. I think I felt better by day 5, and much better by day 15 or so... and then 18 and 19 and 20, I was getting pretty hungry and nauseous. Remember, if you do try your hand at fasting, that the refeed is even more critical. Mood and energy improved dramatically after all that, and depression. And later gains were had on ella and other things I've been doing since then. If I could have easily have obtained ru486, I'd have tried that before ellaone.

Also, I write thousands of words at a time, like 4.5million words in a few years in my 20's. I could barely even read a book, or write an email a few months ago, watch a show, or listen to music. I didn't even walk much before my fast (when I used to have to stop myself from walking, running, writing, staying awake, etc). It gets better. I'm sorry you're going thru this traumatic experience right now. The only way is to power through certain steps like extended fasting. Maybe if you can, order some supplies (like ella, ru, electrolytes, randro, etc), and fast. Watch a show or read, or play a game... a tiny bit at a time -- until you can hold you're attention/interest on it.

I know it has to get better with a lot of hard work, bc I could barely work or register in the correct school and classes after PSSD (and other issues), eventually I was very mentally sharp again. Don't get me wrong, it's not easy at all. It has to be done though, because the alternative is no way to live for me.

 

[Goose12]

How can you exercise if your only intake is water though? At what day of the fast should mental symptoms be expected to improve? I went the whole day the other day with nothing but water and felt awful man.


Having bad anxiety again tonight. I'm sitting here and things that usually bring me joy like online gaming hold no interest to me. Can't believe what's happening.

The first three days of a water fast are the hardest but once your body gets into ketosis It gets much easier.

If you want to juice I would recommend bruess juicing for at least two weeks. The longer the better.

 

[Concerned]

Is it safe to water fast for 7 days at home with no medical or specialist assistance? I assume you just conserve energy on the couch and limit movement?

I want to start the water fast tomorrow then but I don't think I'll be able to do it. Feel so unbelievably bad right now. I need to take something soon to settle my mind and it's probably going to be the mirtazepine tomorrow. I'm so on the edge, I'll end up in a mental hospital by the end of the week if I don't take action.

Apologies for frequent outbursts here but it's my only real outlet at the moment.

 

[MNK99]

I did all of those without medical supervision (it's too costly and annoying in Canada). I understand people not wanting to do that though. Me, I'm a risk-taker. @Concerned I think 7 days is safe... but I don't know if you have other medical issues. Also, maybe you can "feel" out around 7 days and see if you can go for 10 (it's not a contest, but if it helps you I mean). I can't comment on if Mirtazepine will help you, it likely would do nothing to me or send me into Mania (plus weight gain), but we're all different.

I'm actually surprised I didn't end up in a mental hospital, but I know some people who have - it was usually short-term and didn't mess them up too badly. But, there's some serious drugs there too (I'd stay the hell away from every class of psychopharmacological agents except for one, and *maybe 2 classes if my life depended on it). IFF (if and only if) you need to, then that's better than putting yourself at harm. Feel free to pm me.

Most docs will be against water fasting (in the West at least). I've known people with dire medical circumstances (recognized ones) that have improved with variations on fasting (like juice fasting and very strict diets). Honestly if my mental functionality is 70-80% now, it was like 20 or less pre-fast.

TL;DR:
Dude I think you should just fast, in almost every case - unless you have some additional serious disease or disorder.
I'd actually have probably cured PSSD faster, and dealt with other issues better fasted (pretty serious issues, by accident) for many years... I could have skipped a lot of substance use and other things, had I done longer water fasts at 20 and 24 and 25+ years old... before pfs and after.

If you're otherwise relatively healthy (I know you're not well now), 7 d shouldn't mess you up in any way. 20-30 days, maybe, 90 days? Yeah see specialists. Refeeding is critical, it took me longer to refeed than it did to fast... 7 days isn't so bad at all, by the end you may be reading, and enjoying other things again. Refeeding should be relatively easy, and there's protocols here. Fast and walk around London man.

 

[Concerned]

The first three days of a water fast are the hardest but once your body gets into ketosis It gets much easier.

If you want to juice I would recommend bruess juicing for at least two weeks. The longer the better.

Thanks man. Would this the correct ratios for this:

"Breuss juice vegetable juice that consists of 55 percent red beet root, 20 percent carrots, 20 percent celery root, 3 percent raw potato, 2 percent radishes"

I did all of those without medical supervision (it's too costly and annoying in Canada). I understand people not wanting to do that though. Me, I'm a risk-taker. @Concerned I think 7 days is safe... but I don't know if you have other medical issues. Also, maybe you can "feel" out around 7 days and see if you can go for 10 (it's not a contest, but if it helps you I mean). I can't comment on if Mirtazepine will help you, it likely would do nothing to me or send me into Mania (plus weight gain), but we're all different.

I'm actually surprised I didn't end up in a mental hospital, but I know some people who have - it was usually short-term and didn't mess them up too badly. But, there's some serious drugs there too (I'd stay the hell away from every class of psychopharmacological agents except for one, and *maybe 2 classes if my life depended on it). IFF (if and only if) you need to, then that's better than putting yourself at harm. Feel free to pm me.

Most docs will be against water fasting (in the West at least). I've known people with dire medical circumstances (recognized ones) that have improved with variations on fasting (like juice fasting and very strict diets). Honestly if my mental functionality is 70-80% now, it was like 20 or less pre-fast.

TL;DR:
Dude I think you should just fast, in almost every case - unless you have some additional serious disease or disorder.
I'd actually have probably cured PSSD faster, and dealt with other issues better fasted (pretty serious issues, by accident) for many years... I could have skipped a lot of substance use and other things, had I done longer water fasts at 20 and 24 and 25+ years old... before pfs and after.

If you're otherwise relatively healthy (I know you're not well now), 7 d shouldn't mess you up in any way. 20-30 days, maybe, 90 days? Yeah see specialists. Refeeding is critical, it took me longer to refeed than it did to fast... 7 days isn't so bad at all, by the end you may be reading, and enjoying other things again. Refeeding should be relatively easy, and there's protocols here. Fast and walk around London man.

Thanks for the insight here. Could anyone link me to a refeeding protocol so I have an idea what to do after a fast? Is it the cdnuts one or are there others?

And thinking about it, if there was a time to fast, it would be sooner rather than later. I've been going to the gym for over five years and eating well so there's a fair bit of muscle to be relied upon. It's a better place to start from than if I had no muscle and was underweight. I must be losing weight quite quickly as it is though with the amount of calories I am eating. Ate three mini burgers yesterday with no buns and later on I had a steak with some broccoli. Well under 1000 cals. Carbs like rice and pasta which have been a staple for me for years seem unappealing now.


So the consensus amongst almost everyone here is to water fast. It's daunting to me but it looks like it has to be done. I at least had better sleep last night.

 

[MNK99]

It's elsewhere too, but I can't find the original link now. It's post #12 (@mattyb). There are other ideas too...
Generally, it's like veggie broth --> some cooked veggies --> etc --> some fats --> some proteins --> some carbs --> more protein --> more normalized --> all other carbs. I can't remember, but I'm sure others do and will post if you set up a log.

Your break-fast recipes & how it felt

I was in the best shape of my life(physique wise, maybe not running/stamina wise -pretty good tho) pre-fin. And getting there again, post-fast.
I cut only fat and water retention, pretty much. Yeah maybe I lost some muscle, but after several days of fasting I think you rely on fat. If you're super lean.. it's still worth it. @Orion did a very long fast and got in excellent shape. Even if I lost muscle, muscle-memory is there. And having muscle and more fat and dying is bad.

 

[Concerned]

It's elsewhere too, but I can't find the original link now. It's post #12 (@mattyb). There are other ideas too...
Generally, it's like veggie broth --> some cooked veggies --> etc --> some fats --> some proteins --> some carbs --> more protein --> more normalized --> all other carbs. I can't remember, but I'm sure others do and will post if you set up a log.

Your break-fast recipes & how it felt

I was in the best shape of my life(physique wise, maybe not running/stamina wise -pretty good tho) pre-fin. And getting there again, post-fast.
I cut only fat and water retention, pretty much. Yeah maybe I lost some muscle, but after several days of fasting I think you rely on fat. If you're super lean.. it's still worth it. @Orion did a very long fast and got in excellent shape. Even if I lost muscle, muscle-memory is there. And having muscle and more fat and dying is bad.

Just read through most of your log thread, good to see you've seen some substantial improvements in a relatively short amount of time.

In terms of being in good shape etc, at the moment aesthetics seem trivial to me, which is a 180 turnaround in character. I am vain which is why I've been going to the gym for so long and it led me to taking finasteride.

For instance, I've been using minoxidil every night for a couple of years. Since this crash 8 days ago, I applied it once I think and have now given up on it. In a week I've gone from really wanting to preserve my hair to not caring and only being focused on my physical and mental health.

 

[Niles]

Just read through most of your log thread, good to see you've seen some substantial improvements in a relatively short amount of time.

In terms of being in good shape etc, at the moment aesthetics seem trivial to me, which is a 180 turnaround in character. I am vain which is why I've been going to the gym for so long and it led me to taking finasteride.

For instance, I've been using minoxidil every night for a couple of years. Since this crash 8 days ago, I applied it once I think and have now given up on it. In a week I've gone from really wanting to preserve my hair to not caring and only being focused on my physical and mental health.

Probably for the best that you've dropped the minox, because it can do some very strange things to potassium that can even have hormonal affects. We actually have a few threads on here about it.

 

[mattyb]

If I were you I would start with the electrolyte protocol (KCl + HCl + some NaCl + digestive enzymes + protein) for a few weeks, and rotate to a Breuss fast for a few weeks, then refeed properly while going back on the electrolyte protocol but adding in MgCl and more NaCl.

Since this is all so fresh in your mind, I was wondering if you could answer some questions regarding your symptoms at first. Just trying to figure out if there's some early stage symptoms that make sense with Gbold's general theory of PFS.

Did you urinate a lot when symptoms began or right before they began?
Has your stool color/consistency changed?
Have you gotten any acid reflux or anything like that?
Any abdominal pain?
Any tremors or muscle spasms?

 

[Concerned]

If I were you I would start with the electrolyte protocol (KCl + HCl + some NaCl + digestive enzymes + protein) for a few weeks, and rotate to a Breuss fast for a few weeks, then refeed properly while going back on the electrolyte protocol but adding in MgCl and more NaCl.

Since this is all so fresh in your mind, I was wondering if you could answer some questions regarding your symptoms at first. Just trying to figure out if there's some early stage symptoms that make sense with Gbold's general theory of PFS.

Did you urinate a lot when symptoms began or right before they began?
Has your stool color/consistency changed?
Have you gotten any acid reflux or anything like that?
Any abdominal pain?
Any tremors or muscle spasms?

1. I've needed to urinate frequently (and sometimes suddenly) for a few years now so I wouldn't say I noticed anything related to what's happened.

2. Haven't checked really but saw one a few days ago and it looked lighter in colour. What did happen on the day of the crash was that I defecated 4 times that day, 5 times within 24 hours. It had diarrhea like consistency.

3. No acid reflux.

4. No abdominal pain.

5. My hands were shaking at a few points on the day of and a few days after the crash.


Weirdest feeling is that my nose has lost rigidity. It feels squidgy now. I had a nocturnal erection the other night, during a sexual dream which I woke up from. It went down quickly after waking. It also felt smaller. Had another sexual dream last night then woke up after the sexual part of the dream had passed and I think i probably had an erection from it as my penis was slightly engorged, still felt very small compared to usual though. In the day I can still kegel so there's still the connection with my brain there and my libido is still there but I can't get an erection at present.

 

[mattyb]

Diarrhea, so that's where the minerals are lost. Shakiness points to mineral loss as well.

Yeah, definitely try out the HCl + KCl + bit of NaCl first, rotate to Breuss, and back to the same + MgCl.

 

[Concerned]

I'm gonna be using this thread to vent and document how I'm feeling at times but I'll also be asking questions of the community no doubt so please don't write the thread off as a purely for ranting one (not saying anyone here will do that, the support has been amazing already so far). I just know I'm gonna need all the help I can get with this going forward.

--------------

Felt human again last night, it was beautiful. It's strange, I'm already noticing a pattern of having terrible mornings, somewhat delirious early afternoons. Then from 4 or 5 o'clock pm, feel a lot calmer and brain functions a lot better. Then as it gets to around 9 pm, anxiety starts to threaten. Two nights ago I was pacing around the house and felt on the verge of a mental breakdown, passed out on the couch exhausted from it all. Last night, I had a slight feeling that might happen again but then I closed my eyes, fell asleep for a couple minutes on the couch, had my body flinch/jolt hugely which woke me up but then the anxiety and dread feeling had gone and was replaced with feeling normal. I felt like I was able to watch a movie, concentrate on it and enjoy it, which was a big improvement considering the previous few days. Went to bed then fell asleep at about 2 am.

Now, another bad morning. Woke up at 5 am screaming, pure panic. Able to settle back down again to sleep until about 8.30 am. Been up since then. Straight downstairs on the couch with the duvet. Bit of nausea which has passed. Bit of brain fog, tolerable though. Noticed the first hour or so that my breathing is quite heavy, all nasal deep breaths. Feel slightly better now and have a bit of an appetite. Very lucky to be living at my parent's right now, my mum is basically caring for me. I have no idea how people do this by themselves. I don't have the energy or motivation to get up and cook myself.

Appetite

Better than the weekend when I only managed some toast or a few snacks all day. Last few days, only two meals per day. Mini burgers yesterday morning (no bun) with kale, spinach and butter. Kale, spinach and butter with sirloin steak for evening meal. Probably under 1000 cals for the day again but an improvement I suppose. You have to understand this is still crazy for me, less than two weeks ago I was eating my standard massive amount of food each day, as I had for many years previously. I'm 6'2 and gym every week so It's natural I need more calories. Since the crash I've hardly eaten. I usually eat a lot of bread and rice but I haven't really been able to tolerate them since the crash. For now it's just meat (steak, burgers, sausages) and maybe fish like haddock or salmon that appeal. Chicken no appeal really.

 

[mattyb]

It's okay that your body doesn't want much food right now, you gotta listen to it. The calorie deficit and fat metabolism that occurs from it will help your body replenish hydrogen stores. This is necessary to recover - this is why fasting has been suggested by everyone here.

Get your calories from mostly from chloride and potassium rich foods. Rye bread, celery, cucumber, spinach, etc (Great list here: Food Data Chart - Chlorine). Try and eat some salad with spinach + other greens and some apple cider vinegar. The acidity will help. Get your parents to go out and buy you some electrolyte supplements for children with nausea/diarrhea (like pedialyte) and add them to your water. Drink it religiously.

You can make it through this man. Best of luck.

 

[Concerned]

It's okay that your body doesn't want much food right now, you gotta listen to it. The calorie deficit and fat metabolism that occurs from it will help your body replenish hydrogen stores. This is necessary to recover - this is why fasting has been suggested by everyone here.

Get your calories from mostly from chloride and potassium rich foods. Rye bread, celery, cucumber, spinach, etc (Great list here: Food Data Chart - Chlorine). Try and eat some salad with spinach + other greens and some apple cider vinegar. The acidity will help. Get your parents to go out and buy you some electrolyte supplements for children with nausea/diarrhea (like pedialyte) and add them to your water. Drink it religiously.

You can make it through this man. Best of luck.

Thanks so much for the encouraging words and advice Matty, they mean a lot to me right now with the state I'm in.


Today's been quite a bit harder than yesterday so far but nowhere near as bad as Tuesday. Something interesting seems to be emerging which definitely gives me confidence in the theories that this is gut related. I had three sausages, spinach, kale and butter for breakfast and felt OK after eating it. However, about 30 minutes later I had a smoothie my mum had prepared, ingredients were: pineapple, mango, banana, kale, spinach and coconut water. Shortly after I felt a lot more fatigued and the brain fog got notched up by quite a bit, really nasty feeling. This is consistent with the beginning of the week when I had a green smoothie from a shop (think it had apple and kale and something else) and felt appalling afterwards for some time. There's clearly some foods which are making the brain fog worse. I felt like I had an anvil tied around my neck for a bit after the smoothie and I just sat on a chair in the kitchen with my eyes closed. Sticking to meats and green leafy vegetables for the time being until I have the next steps firmly in place.