ZINC FINGER THEORY DISCUSSION for PFS - 2 cases

[MNK99]

@ Jamie
"I will not agree with you. That all does not mean that there is some kind of mysterious balding gene which no one have ever seen."

I never said it meant that. Firstly, there's more than one gene. Secondly, drug induced hair loss -- can affect people who have zero hair loss in their family history. Thirdly, I was agreeing that genes are involved for genetic hair loss. Does anyone really think that 0% of hair loss suffered is genetic?

It's an interplay between a multitude of genes most likely in addition to other factors. It's genetics and what we do, pollution, meds, and more. There's an infinite amount of things at play. As well as probably mutations as Gbolduev says. That's what I think. I didn't actually finish my thoughts on it before.

Most doctors will say its 99.9% genetics. I don't agree with that because I've seen hair loss from meds, as have so many others. I never said it's one "weird" gene. Maybe raised norepinephrine and cortisol caused hair loss for me from Adderall as well as vasoconstriction, but it was clearly not just genetic loss (at least not at the normal rate). I doubt medicine is close to solving drug-induced hair loss, let alone M.P.B., hence why finasteride and minoxidil are the only things out for 30 years.

Alopecia from drugs | DermNet New Zealand

 

[mattyb]

Matty has your gf fixed her IBS? What did she do for it?

It was my ex that had it. No idea what she's up to these days so couldn't say. She was a doctor but stubborn and unwilling to try anything that wasn't approved by the FDA so my guess is things are still the same.

 

[TubZy]

being bald is a mutation, at one point in your life you got to the point of missing some nutrient that the body had to mutate the organ, not the skin, but some organ. So now basically you live in the mutated state and it is a compensatory state. meaning shaky. this is what aging is , a mutation. to me it is unbalanced and not a healthy state . person will always need to compensate for it.

the only antimutate therapy I know is fasting and extreme fasting not some 10 days worthless stuff. LIke 100 days, or 50 days, after that you are reborn.

fasting is anti mutation thing. that is what RPF does not get. If you tell me your hair wont grow back after series of 50-100 days fasts. I would say NO WAY. It will. And you will look like you are in high school . Peat says that fasting breaks down heart, spleen kidney. Great, that is what I want. I want to fast to the point when fasting starts breaking down organs. Only then it works. All this 5- 10 day fasts to me are worthless and waste of time. Plus you need to be in the ocean while fasting, since body take what it needs to rebuild.

feeding the body nutrients from food in a mutated state, does not fix the mutation. Crazy manipulations are needed to change the mutation and you have to be really good at it. And have a lot of courage since to change the mutation you will need to do yourself harm . this is what ARL does. it harms you to get you better. And people never go by that. they go by things that make them feel good. Which to me is worthless in a mutated state.

In Russia every child knows if you get sick you just fast for 40 days. this is the first thing people do. Doctors will never fix your mutation. If you eat normally and you dont get balanced to the point of having a strong buffer and your hair does not grow back. You are mutated, there is no question about it. It is an accelerated aging path now , since any mutation will cause an imbalance and if you smart enough you can compensate for imbalance, but it is never compensated to the full extent.

so what about?

• zinc/manganese
• zinc/manganese/copper/vitamin A
• histidine/lysine/copper
• histidine/cysteine/copper/zinc
• glycine/lysine/copper/histidine

Now are you saying those aren't necessarily going to fix the balance (between prog/DHT/estrogen) or mutation? I definitely understand the protein wasting hair loss though, when I tried high dose T3 I got that.

Hairloss is the balance between progesterone and DHT. If you oppose estrogen with DHT, the higher your estrogen the higher DHT will go. This causes hairloss. this is why you use zinc plus manganese. What will happen when you use zinc plus manganese . You copper levels will fall. this will cause your estrogen lower, which will also decrease DHT. And if you had progesterone high at this moment you would get PFS. But you are taking manganese with zinc, so manganese won't allow your progesterone to go high since manganese inhibits 3 beta hsd. zinc induces it.

So this should work for hairloss just like finasteride, but without side effects.

Unfortunately there is also protein wasting hairloss. And that is more insulin / cortisol issue. Which Ray peats diet can fix.
For androgenic hairloss, I think Ray Peats diet is bad.


like 20-30 zinc, 10 manganese Zinc manganese will stop hairloss and will reverse grey hair. grey beards.

Mineral metabolism of 19 patients with hair loss was examined. The analysis showed manganese deficiency in all 19. Eighteen patients showed considerable problems with calcium absorption, and twelve patients had problems with their zinc metabolism. Specific nutritional and mineral therapy resulted in improved hair growth after 2-3 months of treatment. [Blaurock-Busch, E. Wichtige Nahrstoffe fur Gesunde Haut und Haare, Kosmetik Internat. 3/87]


I will explain one case here with cites. As depo provera is researched well. we can look at it wiki and see what it does exactly.
It agonizes progesterone receptor at 160, it agonizes cortisol and AR. AGONIZES means it acts as an activator of the receptors meaning it acts as progesterone as DHT and as cortisol. This decreases number of the receptors and when you come off of progestin. YOU end up with high DHT, high cortisol and high progesterone. Since the number of the receptors is decreased.

If progesterone is too high and dht is too low, you get PFS type of symptoms and NO HAIRLOSS, since you oppose your estrogen mainly with progesterone. In this case you have no hairloss since DHT sensitivity diminished and you get DHT insensitivity problems since your body cant keep DHT sensitive with progesterone HIGH otherwise it would tank your estrogen TOO MUCH.

if your progesterone is low( zinc deficiency ), you oppose your estrogen with DHT. IN this case you have good sex drive and libido and actually too much of it , but hairloss. ( compulsive masturbators get this kind of hairloss, they actually underproduce progesterone for lack of zinc that they lose during orgasms)
 
This is why I said to get rid of hairloss you need to lower your estrogen by chelating copper. You need to take zinc and manganese not FINASTERIDE. zinc will make sure you produce progesterone, and manganese will make sure that you dont overproduce it and make your DHT not sensitive.

 

[Helen]

so what about?

• zinc/manganese
• zinc/manganese/copper/vitamin A
• histidine/lysine/copper
• histidine/cysteine/copper/zinc
• glycine/lysine/copper/histidine

Now are you saying those aren't necessarily going to fix the balance (between prog/DHT/estrogen) or mutation? I definitely understand the protein wasting hair loss though, when I tried high dose T3 I got that.

stop mixing natural routes and mineral routes.

those mineral routes will work for some people.

I am against supplements overall, I said that from the start.

the mineral route is an attempt to fix the mutation. Or even force it out. that is why I said, to fix the mutation you need huge doses to force the stuff . And if you are wrong on what you are taking it can backfire

most people will not be able to balance themselves with minerals / And taking minerals just out of blue is quite dangerous. This is why I talked about fasting .

 

[JonnyCraig]

So you think the most likely and 'easiest' fix for MPB right now, is fasting?

 

[Aleksandr]

So you think the most likely and 'easiest' fix for MPB right now, is fasting?

Looks like he's saying its the best fix for everything (at least if youre a slow)

 

[Aleksandr]

1 month on, is your tongue still clear?

Damn @gbolduev making fasting sound so enticing. I am 12.5% body fat right now. You can basically see my abs. I dont think id survive a 40 day water fast!!! Would i have a better shot doing something like this?:

End of jan: 5 day fast

End of march: 10 day fast

End of may: 20 day fast

End of august: 40 day water fast. The do one 40 day water fast a year until symptoms go away?

Would that work better? The initial fasts get my body cortisol sensitive and thyroid down, so i dont eat myself?


Or would it be better to eat like a horse, gain 10kg, then begin the fast? (Im worried actually that this would upregulate my thyroid more, and flare my IBS)

@mattyb what do you think about these options?

 

[jacknap]

being bald is a mutation, at one point in your life you got to the point of missing some nutrient that the body had to mutate the organ, not the skin, but some organ. So now basically you live in the mutated state and it is a compensatory state. meaning shaky. this is what aging is , a mutation. to me it is unbalanced and not a healthy state . person will always need to compensate for it.

the only antimutate therapy I know is fasting and extreme fasting not some 10 days worthless stuff. LIke 100 days, or 50 days, after that you are reborn.

fasting is anti mutation thing. that is what RPF does not get. If you tell me your hair wont grow back after series of 50-100 days fasts. I would say NO WAY. It will. And you will look like you are in high school . Peat says that fasting breaks down heart, spleen kidney. Great, that is what I want. I want to fast to the point when fasting starts breaking down organs. Only then it works. All this 5- 10 day fasts to me are worthless and waste of time. Plus you need to be in the ocean while fasting, since body take what it needs to rebuild.

feeding the body nutrients from food in a mutated state, does not fix the mutation. Crazy manipulations are needed to change the mutation and you have to be really good at it. And have a lot of courage since to change the mutation you will need to do yourself harm . this is what ARL does. it harms you to get you better. And people never go by that. they go by things that make them feel good. Which to me is worthless in a mutated state.

In Russia every child knows if you get sick you just fast for 40 days. this is the first thing people do. Doctors will never fix your mutation. If you eat normally and you dont get balanced to the point of having a strong buffer and your hair does not grow back. You are mutated, there is no question about it. It is an accelerated aging path now , since any mutation will cause an imbalance and if you smart enough you can compensate for imbalance, but it is never compensated to the full extent.

you say being a fast oxidizer 'fasting is not for you'. so if fasting is the only way for these mutations what's a fast oxidizer supposed to do?

 

[Steve]

stop mixing natural routes and mineral routes.

those mineral routes will work for some people.

I am against supplements overall, I said that from the start.

the mineral route is an attempt to fix the mutation. Or even force it out. that is why I said, to fix the mutation you need huge doses to force the stuff . And if you are wrong on what you are taking it can backfire

most people will not be able to balance themselves with minerals / And taking minerals just out of blue is quite dangerous. This is why I talked about fasting .

So what is the way most people can balance themselves from pfs if minerals won't do it for most? Is it even possible under your approach?

 

[Slayo]

Okay, but the question was in regards to outside of your own personal experience.

You are telling people to do something pretty extreme. It may not be extreme to you, but it is to everyone else. For people to buy-in, this requires immense desperation on their part or extremely compelling evidence of efficacy. I mean, only one person on this forum has fasted for as long as you and the results are good but by no means extraordinary - Orion finished a 54-day Breuss fast doing everything right but is still shedding hair and dealing with oily skin.

Mattyb i tested adh and osmolality, i posted them in my thread "my hair test and pfs". Please check it. Thanks

 

[Willylong98]

@Scenes how much potassium were you taking? Thanks

 

[Scenes]

@Scenes how much potassium were you taking? Thanks

Honestly not much. I drank a fair bit of tomato juice though. Gbold says to aim for around 500mg potassium.

Cu 2mg
K 500mg
Mg 300-400mg
Cysteine 500mg

I’m not taking cysteine anymore. I’m trying the ghk (histidine, lysine, glycine) combo with the above copper + electrolytes.

All pfs stuff is fine. I’m well man. Now it’s hair and skin. I do find that I can take stuff and lose erections, like I took ghk WITHOUT cu for 2 days and had a much lower libido, but the sample size is too small to say much for certain. Adding cu fixed it I guess.

I’m interested in adding taurine to the ghk-cu as well, maybe even topically.

For those asking, yes I have tried going off everything, albeit only for a week or so after I quit cysteine and copper, and the results stuck for that week. I keep seeing how fast things change by adding or subtracting something, so I’m not afraid of losing it and being stuck in pfs again.

 

[Willylong98]

Honestly not much. I drank a fair bit of tomato juice though. Gbold says to aim for around 500mg potassium.

Cu 2mg
K 500mg
Mg 300-400mg
Cysteine 500mg

I’m not taking cysteine anymore. I’m trying the ghk (histidine, lysine, glycine) combo with the above copper + electrolytes.

All pfs stuff is fine. I’m well man. Now it’s hair and skin. I do find that I can take stuff and lose erections, like I took ghk WITHOUT cu for 2 days and had a much lower libido, but the sample size is too small to say much for certain. Adding cu fixed it I guess.

I’m interested in adding taurine to the ghk-cu as well, maybe even topically.

For those asking, yes I have tried going off everything, albeit only for a week or so after I quit cysteine and copper, and the results stuck for that week. I keep seeing how fast things change by adding or subtracting something, so I’m not afraid of losing it and being stuck in pfs again.

Wow man thanks for the response this just made me happy and gave me a lot of hope. So you are saying you are back to pre pfs in libido and penile sensitivity department? Happy for you and hopefully I get the same results

 

[Scenes]

Wow man thanks for the response this just made me happy and gave me a lot of hope. So you are saying you are back to pre pfs in libido and penile sensitivity department? Happy for you and hopefully I get the same results

Yeah back to normal but I say it tentatively. Don’t want to be making any bold proclamations online and have it come back to bite me.

Libido and sensitivity is good. Pre-pfs is hard to say coz I took fin so long ago and have messed around with lots of stuff since, but I would say I’m normal for a 30yr old dude.

 

[Helen]

We will wait a little bit longer with @Scenes and will outline the protocol that we are doing, I just want to make sure there is no underwater stones it it.

 

[Steve]

We will wait a little bit longer with @Scenes and will outline the protocol that we are doing, I just want to make sure there is no underwater stones it it.

Great work, thanks for your efforts.

Will you make him stop everything to check whether his pfs is gone and he is balanced?

 

[wuf]

We will wait a little bit longer with @Scenes and will outline the protocol that we are doing, I just want to make sure there is no underwater stones it it.

Anyway, we are always at the same point.
We are hundred guys here, impossible to find a protocol for all of us.
We have different imbalances and body reactions.
So, the only way out is to check case by case, with blood test on hands...no other way in my opinion.

 

[bruschi11]

stop mixing natural routes and mineral routes.

those mineral routes will work for some people.

I am against supplements overall, I said that from the start.

the mineral route is an attempt to fix the mutation. Or even force it out. that is why I said, to fix the mutation you need huge doses to force the stuff . And if you are wrong on what you are taking it can backfire

most people will not be able to balance themselves with minerals / And taking minerals just out of blue is quite dangerous. This is why I talked about fasting .

What do you mean by "mineral vs. natural?" Do you consider amino acids as mineral or a natural?

I took a hit this past weekend- bad sexual crash.. I have a bad cold that has lingered for 2 weeks and spending the whole day Saturday (Patriots football game) in 20F/-5C weather outside seems to have made that worse. I also added cysteine in yesterday which seems to have made matters worse.

I believe I'm going to fast today on just bone broth, juice with no aminos then go back to that original zinc finger with lower dosages (I kept increasing last week, need to calm that down).

I can say with certainty that the original zinc finger was doing things for me last week very significantly. Like aiding herxheimer reaction big time. Basically the neuro symptoms (tinnitus, fatigue, brain fog) I get when dealing with pathogen die off are muchhhh easier to handle with zinc finger. The libido and feelings of normalcy were the best part, but this was a significant added bonus.

 

[Potion]

Has anyone mentioned this yet?

The Korean Ministry of Science and ICT said Monday that a team of researchers led by Yonsei University’s professor Choi Kang-yell has developed a potential drug candidate targeting a protein that prohibits new hair follicle growth.

They go on to say:

Choi’s team has discovered a protein called CXXC-type zinc finger protein 5 that binds to the Dishevelled protein. The binding protein interrupts the Wnt signaling pathway that instigates hair follicle development and regeneration in adults.

Based on this finding, the researchers have developed a biochemical substance, PTD-DBM, that prevents CXXC from binding with the Dishevelled protein. When the substance was applied on the bare skin of laboratory mice, they saw new hair follicle growth.

 

[Helen]

Has anyone mentioned this yet?


They go on to say:

Yes we discussed it already. this is what VPA was for, that is the drug those people used.