ZINC FINGER THEORY DISCUSSION for PFS - 2 cases

[mattyb]

@mattyb you are talking about lysine or Lysine clonixinate?

Lysine Hydrochloride.

 

[Shadow]

Lysine Hydrochloride.

Thanks!

Btw I wanna share something that happened last week. I think I ate to much fat and I ended up sick, nausea, vomit, stomach gas, them my whole body started to ache(I used to feel this when I had fever, like the skin became hypersensible, even with my lack of body sensitivity I was able to identify it), the other day I had muscle pain, sciatic pain, and something like an electric shock on some nerves which felt weird after SRRI, I kept getting this zaps for 2 days, then they stopped, and those nerves felt a little better, like the disconfort improved, oh, and a new tone was added at my left ear tinnitus... WTF? something to do with my liver?

 

[JDreamer]

have you tried glycine? I have started sleeping much better since I took glycine

It's in the drink mix that I use by Modern BCAA.

However, I'm thinking of getting off it and trying out the Histidine/Cysteine pairing first, then reintroducing the rest.

 

[JDreamer]

Thought I should note that I took my Zinc/Manganese pairing last night instead of in the morning. So far today I feel calmer than usual and under-arm sweat is nonexistent (which has been one of the more embarrassing problems I've had over the last 10 years or so).

 

[mattyb]

Thanks!

Btw I wanna share something that happened last week. I think I ate to much fat and I ended up sick, nausea, vomit, stomach gas, them my whole body started to ache(I used to feel this when I had fever, like the skin became hypersensible, even with my lack of body sensitivity I was able to identify it), the other day I had muscle pain, sciatic pain, and something like an electric shock on some nerves which felt weird after SRRI, I kept getting this zaps for 2 days, then they stopped, and those nerves felt a little better, like the disconfort improved, oh, and a new tone was added at my left ear tinnitus... WTF? something to do with my liver?

That's volume contraction, chloride depletion. It causes disregulation of the nerves, and it ameliorates with time when you partially or fully correct the fluid and electrolyte losses through food/water.

 

[TubZy]

We need someone who is still really suffering from brain fog and muscle weakness to try out just the lysine HCl + NH4Cl/HCl + KCl then follow it with MgCl and small amounts of NaCl. I think someone like that would be the best candidate to see if it works because you would see a pretty quick turn-around in those symptoms. If that person had aldo tested and it came back high it would be even better.

I'll be honest I tried it once but it was so long ago and I tried many different combos at that time I don't remember if I tried potassium with it. I am not the best candidate in this situation given that I don't have recent bloods or hair test (which I'm in the process of trying to get done now).

I think there are more than enough PFS people that would give this a try given how cheap and easy it is. I hope someone does, but I can tell you that potassium does make or break in terms of protocols.

For clarification, when you say electrolytes, can you list exactly the ones you are talking about. Are you talking about all the ones listed in gbol's OP here where he suggests that liquid supplement with the electrolytes in it!

 

[Canari]

Actually Im thibking that my body cannot habdle so much sympathetic activity for long time

Nobody can nor should. It is not only you, though some people have more resilience than others. And however strange it can sound, it is not that much about handling stress but handling the relaxation that should follow! The system is electric (informations travel over 200km/hour) thus function in waves, S, PS, S, PS...
sympathetic activity for long time = the body launches the hand brake system, freeze/dissociation, and that is then you crash, get numbness etc.

low hours of sleep have put me in normal state I think it was for incresing dopamine....

I don't know but I had a period when I was also feeling better by sleeping less!

i am interested to know if this ups dopamine, or cortisol? Or adrenaline?

The rehydration strategy can help with both volume contraction and expansion

Still do not understand this concpt....

 

[wuf]

@gbolduev
Could you please suggest me something about my case, I am a PFS but I recovered at a good point of it and then DHEA crashed me down again?
I feel always with low energy, no aggression, weak.. (cortisol is a bit low).

You told me what to do, but I don't have it anymore and I even don't remember the exact protocol.
Could you tell me again please?

 

[Canari]

That's volume contraction, chloride depletion. It causes disregulation of the nerves, and it ameliorates with time when you partially or fully correct the fluid and electrolyte losses through food/water.

I think I got something essential for me there! Please, i tagged you in my log to not derail here... volume contraction would be a sort of dehydration... and expansion when people retain water?

I understand now and found this - hope it helps to understand properly :
It Is Chloride Depletion Alkalosis, Not Contraction Alkalosis (PDF Download Available)

 

[JDreamer]

It is about fixing the alkalosis that was caused and fixing digestion:

Chronic stress, metal toxicities, computer work( blue light), vaccines, drinking tons of milk can decrease your zinc finger. This will keep CORTISOL HIGH, since it is not working well. This cortisol usually binds to aldo receptors and causes hypokalemia and hypomagnemia. Also there is a possibility of chloride loss from vomitting and antacids. This causes LOW STOMACH ACID
due to loss of the electrolytes. Because of this you don't digest protein correctly and also your systemic protein is very low. You have lactic acidosis, with problems with hemoglobin, insulin etc.

Cortisol is raised in all these conditions since body is missing zinc finger . Cysteine can actually be high , since histidine is missing and not able to convert it further to glutathione and taurine pathway. Cortisol is high , but not sensitive, in most cases it causes hypokalemia, which mimics low thyroid effect. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO with your thyroid. You are not hypo thyroid, and never take any hormones. Thyroid is totally fine, when you upregulate your zinc finger, cortisol will work and will activate all copper enzymes and cortisol will increases protein synthesis and the actual level of cortisol will fall. Insensitive cortisol causes lack of protein and connective tissue, NOT THE OPPOSITE. CORTISOL ACTIVATES PROTEIN SYNTHESIS and puts ZINC IN THE CELL TO DO SO. It activates collagen synthesis. When cortisol is high, means body is trying to make more of it,since it is not working good enough.
This is why when you are fasting your protein synthesis is even better and the body is creating new tissue at better speed and of a better quality. So please stop listening to people saying cortisol is evil . THEY ARE TOTALLY ABSOLUTELY WRONG. CORTISOL IS NOT WORKING , IT IS RAISED for a reason, And those who lower it, suffer from protein synthesis problems. They need to increase its reception and this will cause cortisol to lower without decreasing protein synthesis and zinc from the cell.

Cortisol is HIGH in the first alarm stage of stress, when zinc finger is missing, but slowly it gets lower and lower and lower and that is when you get into low cortisol and very slow oxidizer. Cortisol goes down with the development of the protein deficiency.

GB would you be able to expand on this a bit? I was a huge milk drinker growing up. I'd say I had probably 2-3 glasses a day all the way into my mid/late 20's. After my digestion issues began I noticed I couldn't tolerate it anymore and it tended to make my scalp itch. Were all those years enough to contribute to pervasive issues with my elevated cortisol?

I'm 39 now btw. I was experiencing strange "ammonia" kind of smells after workouts for the longest time and read that it might be a protein issue so I cut out all of my protein supplements and switched to aminos. The ammonia smell went away, but I still feel like my body doesn't use protein correctly (muscle retention is still so inconsistent).

 

[Reverse]

@gbolduev
Could you please suggest me something about my case, I am a PFS but I recovered at a good point of it and then DHEA crashed me down again?
I feel always with low energy, no aggression, weak.. (cortisol is a bit low).

You told me what to do, but I don't have it anymore and I even don't remember the exact protocol.
Could you tell me again please?

Hey Wuf,

I think maybe you crashed because you were taking DHEA. To my knowledge this is produced in the adrenal glands. Maybe your intake of DHEA was too much and sent the signal to the adrenals to stop producing it's own DHEA. In other words it inhibited your natural DHEA production and then you crashed.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[Snow1]

Well I've been doing it every day for a week nearly and I feel like I am improving.

I'm thinking of eating some liver and having a hydrolysed whey isolate protein shake (all the amino acids fast absorbed) next time before I go.

That way I get the copper from the liver and bs and other vitamins from the liver, the aminos from the protein shake and the electrolytes from the sea.

How does that sound @gbolduev ?

Keep us updated Steve on the swimming in the sea benefits you have, I’m interested in this as the beach is 5mins away from my house.

 

[wuf]

Hey Wuf,

I think maybe you crashed because you were taking DHEA. To my knowledge this is produced in the adrenal glands. Maybe your intake of DHEA was too much and sent the signal to the adrenals to stop producing it's own DHEA. In other words it inhibited your natural DHEA production and then you crashed.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

What you say is pretty Sure. I am asking @gbolduev to help me for my case.
please gold, could you give me a suggestion?
thanks

 

[Canari]

@gbolduev
Could you please suggest me something about my case, I am a PFS but I recovered at a good point of it and then DHEA crashed me down again?
I feel always with low energy, no aggression, weak.. (cortisol is a bit low).

You told me what to do, but I don't have it anymore and I even don't remember the exact protocol.
Could you tell me again please?

It is written somewhere for sure, or did you talk with him?
Try either to search in you own posts when you asked before, or search with his name, which might take longer time. I think he even had told you something already on RPF?

 

[barbaar]

@gbolduev @mattyb what about drinking water with "light salt" (69% KCl, 30% NaCl, rest KI) and taking magnesium tablets? Or is the potassium iodide in it bad because it will slow thyroid?

So, to answer my own question (assuming everyone with PSSD has alkalosis with volume depletion, not sure if that is the case):

There is a fork here and body cant retain sodium no potassiu, thus goes into alkalosis with volume depletion.

And those minerals cant be retained from food since hormones are blocking them

So not very useful since the body won't retain it anyways. Also I think the potassium iodide in it won't matter since in a gram of the lo-salt is only 15% of the RDA.

I also tried acetazolamide last night, to see if that would help retain the minerals. I took it with ~2g KCl, ~1g NaCl, 400mg magnesium citrate, and 3900mg betaine HCl. I'm not sure if it would help after doing that one time, but the only thing I noticed was that I woke up feeling groggy and dehydrated, and my left hand is kinda tingly (common side effect of ace apparently). No effect yet on PSSD as far as I can tell. Maybe I'm not the best person to try this route.

 

[wuf]

It is written somewhere for sure, or did you talk with him?
Try either to search in you own posts when you asked before, or search with his name, which might take longer time. I think he even had told you something already on RPF?

i searched but there is not the one which tells what to use exactly.. i read our conversation on the thread and when i wrote the list, i always missed a part.
So i would need @gbolduev please to tell me again what is good for my case.
Thank you for your help Canari.

 

[Steve]

Keep us updated Steve on the swimming in the sea benefits you have, I’m interested in this as the beach is 5mins away from my house.

I'll be going every day for the next couple of months. 30 minutes per day. I've done about 5 or 6 in the last couple of weeks. Things might be slightly improved.

 

[Jaxx]

So, to answer my own question (assuming everyone with PSSD has alkalosis with volume depletion, not sure if that is the case):



So not very useful since the body won't retain it anyways. Also I think the potassium iodide in it won't matter since in a gram of the lo-salt is only 15% of the RDA.

I also tried acetazolamide last night, to see if that would help retain the minerals. I took it with ~2g KCl, ~1g NaCl, 400mg magnesium citrate, and 3900mg betaine HCl. I'm not sure if it would help after doing that one time, but the only thing I noticed was that I woke up feeling groggy and dehydrated, and my left hand is kinda tingly (common side effect of ace apparently). No effect yet on PSSD as far as I can tell. Maybe I'm not the best person to try this route.

Interesting! Maybe too soon to tell as its 12 hours later right. Any plans how to proceed?

 

[barbaar]

Interesting! Maybe too soon to tell as its 12 hours later right. Any plans how to proceed?

I'm thinking of trying licorice root again, this time feeding sodium while on it, and going ham on potassium as soon as I quit, as per:

@Shadow

As you see you have high progesterone and high aldosterone. Progesterone bind to aldo receptor and blocks it hence low sodium.

Aldosterone increases potassium loss, thus low potassium. This is a fork, that you have here. You can retain sodium and potassium and you are in alkalosis and volume reduction.

This is why licorice root, Ella worked for PSSD I would assume. licorice root retains sodium, this lowers aldosterone, after you quit licorice, your renin axis is suppressed, aldo is low, and you feed potassium. Or the opposite, you block progesterone, this allows the body to retain sodium, aldo falls, then you raise potassium

Usually this is fixed by sodium chloride , potassium chloride IV, since they wont go in from the mouth. Since the retention is blocked.

Just get a ringer solution and do an IV, should fix you .

You see we are trying to fix alkalosis and so forth. But unfortunately alkalosis supports itself , since you get a fork like this. And you cant retain minerals from food.

That is why if no IV, then we have to use something that blocks either aldo, or progesterone.

I bet spiro, or ella is the fix for PSSD and especially your case.



Finasteride people have a different fork. HIGH progesterone, and high cortisol. which is basically the same, since cortisol activates aldosterone receptor. And most Fin people have alkalosis with volume expansion as oppose to yours with volume reduction

If the above would hold for my case, I'dve expected to get at least some benefit from my licorice root + ella trial though. It didn't really do anything as far as I can tell. Maybe I didn't get enough sodium and potassium during that time.

Edit: Ugh I really should get bloods done to see if I'm actually high prog high aldo too. Time to go search for a different doctor...

 

[Jaxx]

I believe we should focus more on understanding why certain things give many pssd-people fully-cured windows, but dont stick. Too many things on the table now, with mixed results